Homosexuality Taught by Americans in Private Korean school

Note from the Koreabridge Manager:  We often receive emails or posts from people who feel they have been treated badly and/or wrongfully terminated by an employer.  Normally, we do not allow these to get posted because we don't get into 'blacklist' types of posts due to potential legal and managerial headaches. This post, however, brings up some other issues about what is appropriate to do or say in the classroom, so I'm going to cautiously clear it for publishing.  All names of individuals and institutions have been removed (expect the author). I realize that this topic could get pretty heated, pretty quickly. Feel free to argue your points passionately, but please attack ideas not people and do not mention any specific names of individuals or institutions. Any posts that contain insults or personal attacks will be deleted in their entirety.
OK, here goes.....

Until April 1st, I was the Principal at ....Academy in ...., Korea, which is a private high school under the auspice of a Christian University and on its campus too. I was terminated because I would not allow several teachers to teach abortion and homosexual marriage in the classroom and I reported it to the President of the University, which is the benefactor of the school. He terminated me immediately.

1. Teacher X is a professed lesbian who lives with her female lover and has also lived with her at the university apartments with the knowledge of administrators
SHe has openly taught the students that these items:
A. The student can make his/her own decisions regarding sexual preference.
B The student should always question tradition and authority and then decide if it should be followed.
C Each student has own right to decide what is right and wrong.
D. Teacher has been seen by Tim Avants, me, hugging passionately her lover in the teacher's office at the school.
The position at the  Academy is her very first teaching job.
2. Teacher Y has taught the students that they can make their own decisions regarding the use of their body. SHe told female students that they have the right to end a pregnancy if sexual behavior outside of marriage results in pregnancy. SHe has also taught them that homosexual marriage is permissable and no one can tell them what to do with their body-even if they are still living at home and are minors. She said that terminating a pregnancy (abortion) is always acceptable and it is the girl's decision.
Teacher Y was terminated from her last position because she did the same thing there. During the process of her termination, she abruptly quit and came directly to the Academy where she lied on her application. I spoke with the Principal there  and he told me everything.
This infromation was given to the adminstrators but they failed to act on it.
This is only her second job after graduation; she was terminated from her first job and is repeating the same behavior at the Academy.
3. Teacher Z has taught the girls that they have the right to have premarital sex if it seems "correct" for them to act on their feelings. SHe invited students to her house at the  Academy housing where she lives unmarried with her boyfriend.
SHe told several girls that no one can tell them what to do with their bodies and that they are grown and can make their own decisions. SHe also said that moraility today does not depend on what other people think and parents cannot tell  their children what to do in private.
The  school administration has allowed her to live with her boyfirend. The administration knows it and the children know it. By the way, the  University does not agree with these immoral acts but the school's administration has condoned it.
This is Teacher Z's very first teaching job. SHe is a new graduate.
4. Teacher W confronted me and said that the teachers should be allowed to teach whatever they want, ncluding homosexual marriage and that the children are big enough to make their own decisions. He is now the new Principal. I did a background search on him and he too lied on his application about his academic background.
These teachers have also made two students to go an extra semester of school because of wrong advice given during academic counseling on what to take the next semester. Teachers X and Y both caused a student to have to take an extra semester. Teacher Z gave bad counsel and caused a student to drop a class which must be made up in order to graduate. The teachers the academic advisers and do not have the knowledge or ability to do that work. ANother two students were forced to take the exact same course in two consecutive smesters.
This was watsed time in class but it was hidden by the teachers.
Your children are in danger because everything you have taught them is being torn down.
The image that you have of most AMericans is true. They go to Korea to get drunk, chase girls, and have sexual relationships in secret.
My doctorate is in Instructional Leadership and I am a Christian. I have 8 textbooks on the market and I have written 16 different programs around the world. I have taught tin the Middle East, Korea, AFrica, and the United States.
I am no one important but I took a 75 % cut in salary to work at the Academy. to help your children. I have had 5 children and this is my life, my career, I am no one but your children are everything. THeir entire future and their morality depends on these days.
I didn’t mention these these teachers did not turn in lesson plans, skipped work for many hours, went to Vietnam (a prostitute paradise-{name removed}did this and left his pregnant wife home alone), were laughed at by the boys for trying to be sexy, humilated students and received written warnings, screamed at this Principal because ({name removed}) wanted to dress sexy , etc
I reported all of these items as they happened. First I went to  the Administrator and was told this: "Be quiet or else I will terminate your contract. Let them teach what they want." THat was in December.
I reported all of it again to another  adminstrator.
I was terminated immediately and shoved out the door. Your children are in moral danger. This will affect their lives because they heard it from a teacher. "Have sex-it's ok!  It's your decision! No one else's."
Parents, do you want your children to learn and hear this? ...from people they trust? ANd belive me, Teacher X looks at the young girls there with lust in her heart...with greedy eyes that want to eat. I have seen it. Girls, if she has touched you and has been too friendly, this is why.
Parents, I urge you to take your children out or at least investigate. Call Dr. L. Call the Board of Trustees for the University. Write the Presbyterian Church which is affiliated with the school. Do not accept it because your daughter may come to you next year and say," Mama, I am pregnant or I am homosexual."
No teacher there has children except Teacher W and he's 44 years old with a one year old. But they WILL corrupt your innocent children and they are this minute. As a father and professional teacher and teacher trainer, I KNOW these people are not qualified but rather than terminate them and warn the parents, I was terminated to keep it quiet. I love your children and hope and pray that this is exposed because they are infinitely worth more than all heaven and earth and all the schools in the world.
That is why I write this.
God bless you.
Students please allow your parents to see this. I will answer emails.
Tim Avants

"I reported all of these

"I reported all of these items as they happened. First I went to  the Administrator and was told this: "Be quiet or else I will terminate your contract. Let them teach what they want." THat was in December.

I reported all of it again to another  adminstrator.
I was terminated immediately and shoved out the door."
get over it...you were warned and then proceeded with your course of action, and now you must suffer the consequences.
who are you to judge?  i do not condone what XYZPDQ are doing, but does that give me or you the right to tell them otherwise?  it's the adminstration's right, and they don't seem to mind.  since you vehemently disagreed with them enough to get fired over it, you should be glad your not working in an environment that you were not comfortable in.  count this as a learning experience and move on to the next job.


sex and korea

They talk about sex in KOREA? Is all hell breaking loose? By the way, there is no such thing as christianity anymore. It's all about money and jobs.


 Tim. Its the 21st

 Tim. Its the 21st century. Get a life.

There are a million things in this world that are wrong, but you focus on this?

Sweet. Baby. Jesus.


Great, just what the world

Great, just what the world needs more of - a judgemental, self-righteous, uptight moral scold.

I, for one, am glad to see you out of work.




Another manager note:  I'm already having serious second thoughts about deciding to approve this forum topic and this comment doesn't help.  It contains the kind of personal attacks that wouldn't normally be allowed on this site. As a result, I have edited it to remove some direct insults and legally worrisome language (edits italicized), but allowed to substance of the post to go online. If this thread stays online, it will be because the topic of potential interest to the community ('morality' in the classroom ) is getting discussed, not the 'You're a sinner. No you're a liar' discussion takes over. 

You were terminated because your credentials are fraudulent.  A google search on your name shows that resume is all over the place.  You have had 21 jobs in 15 years in I don't know how many countries.

 Are you a Ph.D, a Ph.D candidate, a Ph.D in progress, an and Ed.D candidate, an Ed.D....?

There are discrepancies between his  online resume and on his book cover or both:

-Argosy University, a for profit university, will not verify his enrollment or claim of “Ph.D. in progress.”  (Online Resume – 2008): 

Argosy University
Ph.D. in Progress
Major: Curriculum & Instruction
Minor: TESOL

-His vanity press published book claims that he is an “Ed.D. candidate”:  " is an EdD candidate, has two degrees in English, including a Master of Arts with an emphasis in Grammar and Composition, and is currently doing research to complete his EdD in Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages.” 

-According to his online resume, Brookhaven College puts his Ed. D. time frame between August, 2001 and May, 2002.   He has no mention of university enrollment during this time period on his resume.

Damn! 'The Truth' I hope I

Damn! 'The Truth' I hope I never piss you off. You got the skinny on everyone.

15 jobs in 21years is not a good thing. You remind me of an ex-collegue who has been fired from every universtiy he has ever worked for. Ten years in Korea and ten different jobs. In order for him to land empoloyment he needed to move cities.

 It sounds like you really can't get along with people. Perhaps you should become a mountain guard here who watches for fires. The pay is low but at least you are tucked away in the mountain away from people.

 Your termination suggests

 Your termination suggests that justice was served. Children go to school to get an education. Withholding that from them because of your immoral fears makes you incapable of doing your job.

Well done, Mr President

 I have never, in my whole life, held a Korean administrator in such high esteem.  Tim you don't sound like a terribly fun person to work with. Unemployment seems the best place for you.

you might want to...

Remember that your sense of morality is not supreme.  Perhaps such discussions are not appropriate for the classroom (it depends on the class and what the teacher is supposed to be teaching), but if the manager had no problem with the teachers why involve yourself?  Really, why do some people feel this need to correct others?  What is so terrible about being a lesbian anyway, and why is is to galling to you?  People are born straight or gay, educating people on the matter doesn't 'turn' them, and Korea needs to wake up and realize that their views on the matter are woefully out of date.

Just relax man, you'll live longer.


Manager, why have you loaded this gun?The Korean press could have a field day with this kind of nonsense.I would like to ask the the poster what is his definition of Christianity?To be honest, I see little evidence of anything christian in his actions. This makes you look silly, the profession look tainted and it makes me sick. I don't understand why you would paint all Americans with the same brush. You claim to be a headmaster of sorts, the almighty, an omnipotent firer of men. Are you the Lord himself?I think you are nothing more than a self publicist. The claim you make below makes me entirely suspicious of you motivations , and I do not understand why you brought this farce to Pusanweb.Your motivations seem skewed in my mind's eye.


I am no one important but I took a 75 % cut in salary to work at the Academy. to help your children. I have had 5 children and this is my life, my career, I am no one but your children are everything. THeir entire future and their morality depends on these days.



They went to VIETNAM???

How DARE they !?!?!? Such heathens. 



Discretion is the better part of valour

Being a parent myself I can see both sides of this debate. I'm pretty close to my kids and fairly well educated. I've always made a point of discussing topics such as sexuality and the ways of modern society with my children in advance of what they might hear from their peers or teachers.

I do believe that some people are born homosexual but as I've grown older I've also realized that others have simply decided the lifestyle is the one they prefer. It's not all black and white as this headmaster and his former subordinates seem to have been arguing.

While I can sympathize with both sides, I would not want a homosexual teacher telling either my son or my daughter that the wisdom I have acquired in life bears no relationship to my ability to counsel them on these matters. On the other hand, neither would I want some strict social neo-conservative pontificating his opinion toward my children.

Sex talk in school needs to remain a scientific talk and stick to biology. I don't want anyone else influencing my children's opinions on matters that involve sexuality, or their perspectives on homosexual people, or the pendulum we all find ourselves on at different points in our lives with regard to our own thoughts and practices or our own views on sexuality.

Some of your respondents seem to be quite strident in their belief that as teachers they have the right to offer such opinions. I'm sorry but as a parent and future Korean ESL teacher, I believe that both the pro-gay and anti-gay movements are not appropriate classroom discussions -- leave it to the dinner table or private discussions held between siblings or with parents. 

If such topics are not discussed within the family in Korea, then you should respect the culture and leave well enough alone.

Do I believe in self censorship?

Well, discretion is the better part of valour.

All the best,



"The image that you have of most Americans is true. They go to Korea to get drunk, chase girls, and have sexual relationships in secret." 

Does anyone seriously want to deny this?  Just a sincere question.  Are we really not into our Korean women and our booze?  Is it really so bad to say that most foreign men enjoy getting laid by Asian women?  Is it wrong to say that it's a superficial trend, a fetish of sorts?

It's just what is, folks.  Why does everyone get so upset and touchy over remarks like this?  Don't get so angry when someone wants to hold the mirror up to your face.

Casting wide nets of

Casting wide nets of stereotypes never does anyone any good.  Do I like to have a drink and meet a pretty girl?  Sure, but to explicitly state that that is the only reason I came to Korea is ignorant, harmful and most of all annoying.  Also, as if some Korean men don't act the same?


You chide people for not acting "professional" and then you post, "If you can't do that, Fu*k off home, we don't need you here." 

Your self righteousness is sickening.

Unfair...(to the KB manager)

I think it's unfair to omit every name except the author.  All or nothing.  It's basically saying "Let's protect the people being accused of these things because they're foreigners...but look, here's the guy who's saying all of these nasty things about our community!  Go get him, guys!"

Manager Responses

To Angel: I'm not sure why I 'loaded this gun' - maybe it was a quiet Thursday and I felt like living a bit dangerously. As I said in my preface, I usually make sure these kinds of posts don't get on the site, but with this one, I suspected this would be appearing elsewhere online and wanted to provide a civil space for people to respond.  The issue of what is appropriate for a teacher to say in a class is a potentially substantive one, but the personal vindictiveness this post contains still leaves me wondering if I made the correct decision. 

To SolidChamp: I considered deleting the poster's name, but decided not to because...
a) I think there's a difference between using your own name in a post and using real names of other people.  We've never deleted names when people post their own, we've always deleted names when they belong to other people. 
b) the poster used his real name as his ID, so I didn't think it really mattered.   

Looking from outside the perspective of a teacher.

What a sad load of arrogant individuals you are. I see nothing on this site but bickering, back stabbing, arrogant and vicious attempts to be-little others who do not have the same considerations or beliefs that you do.

I think the word bigot covers this well.

As so many times mentioned, it is a sad state of affairs that a so called "professional" (I use this word very loosely) group of teachers cannot even discuss the principles of a post, without descending into a hysterical, howling pack of hyenas, attacking the individual.

So bad in fact, that the Manager has to remove these styles of posts, simply because you are incapable of a logical thought process, and processing them from thought to speech and then to print.

Yes, I accept that maybe the principles of the original post were one sided, but the responses have been equally one sided, and all personal attacks.

Me, I simply thank God that my two sons, both grown up, never came into contact with, or had the unenviable possibility of absorbing this mind and body destruction that comes through with your comments.

Try to act a little more maturely, by all means discuss, even attack principles, but for all that is holy, leave the individual out of it. He/she have just as much right to their opinions as you.

burnetts1_2000, thank God for the FIRST impartial and thought provoking post on this topic, that actually analyses the post for what it was, serious reservations on observations, rightly or wrongly, and I find your post so close to my thoughts, to make it uncanny. More from you please, it is so refreshing. 

For those of you about to destroy me with your usual gusto, I don't give a sh*t. I am not a teacher, but an engineer, and have been here in Korea for some considerable time, and will see the majority of you long gone from this country before I do. 

My time in Korea has been an amazing experience, and the Korean people a fabulous nation.

Try to emphasise your good experiences more, and just accept that the world is not perfect. If you can't do that, Fu*k off home, we don't need you here.  


Thanks man

Thanks for your comments kilhallon. I also appreciate your reservations on the observations. I remember when I was first in university, the intellectual freedom that comes with it is captivating for all of us, not just the homosexual community. Unfortunately, a few years outside university you realize you can't continue with this type of mindset. It's like laying your cards on the table while everyone else is holding them close to their chests. Some of the respondents seem to believe that homosexuality is not spoken of in Korean homes and they deplore this type of situation. Even if that's so, it's hard for me to believe that any parent would lack incite into their children. Perhaps South Korean parents are simply more philosophical about these matters and allow their children to discover themselves at their own pace. The fact is, the more things change the more they stay the same, and if you have a society that cherishes discretion over openness, then a handful of socially strident gay teachers are not going to tip the balance.

Given the nature of the culture in South Korea and the reasonable assumption that a culture much older than ours will not change even with our dedication to openness and social and intellectual freedom, then what favours are we doing for young gay or bisexual students in making them believe our attitudes would create a greater benefit for them as they embark upon life's journey?

Yes, the homosexual teachers were speaking truthfully, but what good is the truth when everyone else is wrapped up in deception, even self deception? It seems to me, that  given such parameters, all we're doing is stripping these children bare with a supposed Western-style avant-guard mindset. As a result, they could easily fall prey to traps of self-victimization and/or fall prey to unenlightened people.

Have you ever noticed that the whole world is engaged in philosophical warfare? There are the liberals and the conservatives, the profit takers and the charitable, the industrialists and the environmentalists, the gay people and the anti-gay people. Even throughout history there are only a handful of people who had ever had a decisive impact on battlefield of philosophical warfare. I believe as teachers we would much better empower our students through helping them to understand themselves and helping them build toward an ideal self-actualization of their own personal skills and abilities. Now that could change the world; much faster than attempting to impose our own liberal philosophies on what is perhaps a socially conservative culture.

All the best,


 kilhallon, sorry, your post

 kilhallon, sorry, your post sounds the most "arrogant" of all of them (besides the original).  sorry, if that sounded like a personal attack, just using your words.

also, i do not believe that my original post was "attacking" the original author.  i was merely trying to give the person a sense of perspective. my use of "judge" was meant in the religious context since the author seems to be a vehemently, fundamentalistic christian in his posting.  also, telling him to "get over it" is probably the best advice he can get.  if the author continues with such imposing of his ideals in a work place, he will continue to find himself in a very similar position in the future (given his possible track record of holding many different jobs in the past, this may be a real problem for him).  if the original poster cannot abide by the wishes of his superiors, he will continue to be without a job.

with that said, i think it is humorous that your trying to turn this into a philosophical debate when in truth, it is not.   the simple truth is a person of suspect honesty got fired and is now trying to flame anyone and everyone that he worked with and in the process is trying to bash "most Americans", too.  

...and if you want to debate the philosophy "should sexuality be taught in the classroom?", fine.  but i don't think that was the original author's intention.  the original poster started this attack session, and most people find it difficult to not fight back or come to the aid of those who have been attacked.  if you want polite debate, there's three things you shouldn't discuss:  sex, religion, and politics--this one seems to encompass most of these (if not all).

not really seeing any backstabbing here, except by the original author.  i think everyone else has been very forthright (if not too much).

i will agree with your use of "professional", but likening people's comments to a "pack of hyenas" seems like an "attack" as well.  

be careful of your use of the word bigot.

SolidChamp and original poster, saying "most Americans" is slightly erroneous.  would be best to say (like SolidChamp implies) "most Foreigners who come to Korea".   most foreigners who come to korea are adventuresome and/or are fresh out of (or still in) college.  thus their adventuresome spirit encompasses most of their acts, including sex and sexuality.  i would not call this as acts of immaturity because i think these people have (or should have) enough knowledge to choose to either be in 'committed' relationships or not and with whom (remember that the koreans are just as culpable).  also, since many people who come to korea are here temporarily, it makes sense to have temporary relationships.  most people you meet are gone in a few months anyways so why not try to enjoy your time with them to the fullest?--and for most that does include sex.  if you are trying to limit this to only foreigners, that is ridiculous because look around any part of town--how many "barber parlors" are there?  how many "love hotels" are there?  there's not enough foreigners in this country to account for the existence of so many of these.

 ....and the idea of drinking--sorry, i see more koreans stumbling around drunk than i see foreigners.  if i do see foreigners stumbling around drunk, it's for the most part after a heavy night of drinking on the weekends.  throughout the week and almost anytime of the day, i see koreans drunk.  so to limit this past-time, to only foreigners is ridiculous--especially when you take into account that this is a country where you can get a liter of an alcoholic beverage for less than the equivalent of $1.


whew...okay.  glad to see this discussion, regardless--be it about the more philosophical or the pedestrian.  it's healthy to get opposing viewpoints on all matters, but that doesn't mean people will change their own opinions.  all we can do is respect each others opinions--and if not the opinions, maybe the other person.  but i do understand that might be pushing it...


As a counselor in Korea, one thing that I like about

One thing that I like about Carl Rogers was that as a counselor, he basically held up a mirror and helped people to hear what they were saying and reach their own conclusions for their own lives.

I believe that as educators it helps if we let go of some of our agendas and allow our students to live and experience life as they see fit. It's important for us to teach both sides and allow our students to reach their own conclusions. Though, I personally might believe in Manogammy in whatever form it takes, I think that it's best if I don't easily tip my hand for my students to see. Sometimes being "devil's advocate" can help them to see the other sides as well.

As a Christian, I believe in mystery and grace. I take people where they are and love them for who they are. I cannot change other people. I can only change myself. (I might inspire people, but change is smething that they need to work through.)

I think that both extreems may have elements that are unhealthy. I think that the bottom line is to express professionalism in a way that demontrates a love and concern for the students; being free to think, make mistakes, grow and know that we will be there to support them with loving care.

Thank you

Hmmm, this is not what I thought

 Sorry folks, it seems this discussion is not what I thought.

This headmaster's former teachers are arguing it's not about attitudes toward homosexual people in South Korea or what is appropriate to speak about in the classroom. It's about lies and the truth.

My apologies for getting caught up in this deception. 

All the best,


I concur

The comments you refer to have been 'unpublished' pending further review (tonight).


 I'm not gonna waste any more time on this than my discontent forces me... but my discontent does force me to say that this guy is a bigoted, self-righteous, chauvinistic, fascist. I can sum up his entire, albeit poorly written and terribly executed rant in this short and simple paraphrasing:

"You and your children must believe what I believe, and act as I do. You and your children must be taught my religion as I see it and its morals for no other reason other than I have said so."

great lesson suggestion!

Thanks for the idea for the lesson plan.  I just got done teaching my sixth grade about homosexuality and it went really well!!  We started off with same-sex hand holding, but by the ending I was showing clips from the L Word and Queer as Folk.   Success!

Don't be suprized if you are

Don't be suprized if you are out of a job by weeks end. Or you could be just saying you did this lesson, you have no proof you did. I'm thinking you didn't. I'm sure you teach more than one class of grade six, why don't you tape the next one and post it?

I have nothing against same sex relationships but we, foreign infidels are the last people who should be lecturing about this taboo subject.This need not be part of a 6th graders English program. Stick with Let's go 5/6 and do you like apples?   

Agree with LBS

I am not sure that the lesson you did was appropriate for the kids that age. What is right in your mind ,is not always right for kids. You are seeing things from an adult perspective. To be honest, I think any talk of sex, sexuality and associated issues, should be left at home. You have taken that choice away from the parents. You have probably confused them, their parents will be fuming, and it was probably not a wise decision. If you did that in my country, you would get a huge reprimand, or you could be fired. I would not be surprised if you are in trouble, so expect bad news soon. I am sure your Co teacher will also feel the brunt of your actions to. I have no idea why you would attempt to teach such a volatile subject here.I has nothing against you, or homosexuals, but this was out of order.


Whethere sex-ed is right for 6th graders is one question to be debated but for sure it should not be up to people from a different country who get thrown under the bus at the wink of an eye teaching it. Heck, I do not even go to the washoom if there are any students in there-no matter what the age. You need to watch yourself here.

Sex-ed in school is okay but taught but foreigners in Korea-NO WAY!  And homosexuality in a country 'where there are no gays' is suicide. Where is the line? How far can you go with this? Leave it to the parents or a Korean teacher.

I really don't understand

I really don't understand many of the foreigners here. I would never bring up a subject like this and certainly not to elem. school children. Not to whip a dead horse in this as many people seem to agree. Angel and I are polar opposites, have had words in the past and even we agree on this.

I've been away from the west for some time so I'm just wondering what is it about newer(shall I say less than a few years in country) people that seem to be on a crusade of sorts?  It's reminds me of 'Team America... fuck yeah! Freedom is the only way. Our way is the right way, yours wrong!

The first batch of EPIK people I met, who were primarily professionals from the west back in the day also tried to revolutionize Korean education to some extent. They failed miserably and most went home without even finishing a contract.

Were we vets on a mission back in the day? Did we start on like this and come to terms that we were never going to change the system? I don't know.....

all of you interesting

I just want to share. Just be the best teacher that you can be.  God put you on this earth for a reason, not to protest.  Protesting doesn't solve a thing.  If you are a true believer let God take care of the other teachers, even if they are not the best.  Not hardly everyone is the best teacher or representative on this earth.  Everyone is given a fair share of sharing.  If they use it right, thats fine, if they don't, not to worry.  Teachers come and go, even in schools in America.  Everything will be revealed in time, either today or tomorrow, or even ten years down the road. 

Each child has it's own mind, we should look for the child's happiness, even if the happiness is not at home, at least we can give that child comfort in our own presence by sharing.  Hoping that sharing doesn't do any harm, and if you are a true believer, then that your sharing doesn't do any harm.

Don't discourage the child or the older students.  Just do your best everyone and seek a healthy minds.  Accept one as is, and let someone else do the changing.  You can't change anyone on this earth. I wish humans quit acting like they have to change one another.  Try to be a great representative of oneself, quit judging one another( every child sees that, if they see it, they will go against everything you say)  quit being self righteous,  quit being prideful, quit being greedy and selfish.  Think of others people. 

facts on homosexual/lesbian lifestyle part 1

(part 1)

Hi Tim,
1st, you for SURE did the right thing and it's shocking that an administrator of any school, even secular, let alone Christian would fire you for what you did when it is the teachers who are in serious violation of educational, cultural, Christian and secular ethics. I feel strongly that if everything you say is true, you should
A) take the case to the board members of the university or
B) take the evidence to the Presbyterian Church leaders who have authority over that university. What happened is blatantly immoral in terms of Christian morality, but it is also seriously unethical even by secular standards.

Even before we get to the homosexual/lesbian issue, these teachers you speak of are harming the students in their educational counseling, acting very unprofessional (not turning in lesson plans and skipping classes) in ways that would warrant serious warnings if not them losing their jobs. In addition, it is not appropriate for foreigners to impose their culture on another culture when the habit they are trying to promote is so exceedingly destructive. That's just terribly immoral.

For all those below who think Tim is a bigot, teaching the lesbian or homosexual lifestyle or that there is no problem with premarital sex is no different from teaching people to use drugs or giving kids a loaded game and telling them it's a toy. The media loves to portray it as some kind of civil rights issue. It most certainly is not a civil rights issue anymore than taking drugs is a civil rights issue.  I'm not certain that the homosexual/lesbian lifestyle or taking drugs should be banned. God seems to give freedom to people to do things that are harmful to themselves as part of freedom of choice.  But, at the BARE minimum, people should be told the relevant facts so they can make a wise and informed judgement.

Sex is a wonderful thing in the right context, sort of like fire is.  God invented it to give us great pleasure and it's such a wonderful thing for us to enjoy. But, when it's perverted, it can also be very harmful. I'm going to limit my comments to homosexual and lesbian issues although there is MUCH data about the damage that has come from premarital sex (millions have died from it, become infertile and many other problems to say nothing of the psychological damage it has caused).


Manager Note: The rest of this post has been removed. It primarily contained materials from the above links and took this thread too far away from where we're willing to go with this topic - the issue of what is appropriate to mention in a Korean classroom concerning sexuality.  More moderation thoughts (and possibly edits) pending. 

"Christian school" is almost a meaningless phrase

Avants, and to some degree, Dotoree, are attacking an overly wide range of problems in their posts.

I think everyone can agree that lying on a job application (teachers Y&W) and giving bad administrative advice (teachers X,Y,Z) and not following administration requirements (no lesson plans....) could be worth firing someone over.  If the description of these events is correct, the administrator should have taken action, whether it be firing or simply a reprimand.

It is too bad that the above events were included in the post, as everyone makes an administrative mistake once in a while.  I think Avants' main goal in writing this post is to discuss the teaching of various sex education issues and he has really muddied the waters with the extraneous details (and the slurs about Americans in general).

I have worked at two Christian universities in Korea and the only visible sign of their religious background was the requirement of an hour of two of chapel class each week.  So far as I know, students could sleep through the sermon and the day after bibles were handed out, the gutters near the chapel were filled with discarded bibles.

The discussions of sexuality Avants describes would definitely get a teacher at Liberty or Bob Jones university fired -and possibly tarred and feathered.  On the other hand, some small 'c' Christian universities in the US have LGB...(Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual - forget the other initials...) clubs forming on campus.

Christians can believe a huge diversity of ideas and still be considered Christian, somewhere.

I think Avants' big problem is in finding a school that properly fits his beliefs. With the education and experience he claims to have, I would have expected him to better research the school he ended up working with.  Perhaps Dotoree has inside information when he suggests going "to the Presbyterian Church leaders who have authority over that university".  A quick review suggests that the manager redacted the name or denomination of the university and High School.

For myself, I think the issues do deserve to be mentioned to university students at some time in some way.  Probably not in ESL class and possibly not to high school students, though.  I'm okay with Teacher X, for example, being a lesbian but concerned that she brought it up in class.

Although not a Christian myself, I work at a Christian university (most or many of my students are not Christian either) and will answer very briefly if a student asks me my religion but it is not a conversation I allow to go on.

If Avants has described the situation correctly, I am more concerned about the teachers' professionalism than their private beliefs.

I've been living in Korea for

I've been living in Korea for over 13 years. The majority of that time has been in a university context. There are students in my classes that are left-handed, gay, lesbian and transgendered. I, personally don't have a problem with what they do, because as a christian, I believe in monogammy in whatever form that it takes. If a textbook mentions boyfriend or girlfriend, or husband or wife, I ask my students~ is there anyone special in their lives. I talk about if they might have a partner. It doesn't matter if they are gay. I love them the way they are. (Carl Rogers calls it unconditional positive regard.) Now, you may not agree with me, and that is fine. But I have had students come to me with some of their struggles because they knew that I cared and continue to care for them and accept them. (BTW, I have many former students that I still keep in contact with, they know that if they ever need anything from me, I am a phone call away.)

Over the last decade or so, we have discussed in class about Hong, Seok-chon's coming out of the closet. Students find this a very interesting topic and are very much surprised to find out that there are many Koreans that are gay, lesbian, or transgendered. I know that it's a controversial topic. I only ask that we shed more light and less heat.

Yu are discussing these

You are discussing these topics with adults, not children. That's fine, I would still be hesitant to bring such things up as a topic. If a lecture went off on a tangent then sure. 

 I have been here as long or if not longer than yourself but I take a different approach when it comes to students. I am their teacher, I'm not their friend. I'm not Korean no matter how long I stay here, speak well enough Korean, know customs and traditions better than they do. I don't go drinking with them, I don't consule them because I think their problems are TV drama based.

It seems futile for me to play the part of opa or hyungnim when I am not even included as one of them. So I don't. 

If your approach works for you and it makes you a better person, I think it's great. I just won't invest the time and energy to mix my job at hand with problems in their lives outside of the class room.

I have read this thread and

I have read this thread and thought on the subject matter for awhile now. If the original post is true I find it very hard to believe as I highly doubt a christian university would protect homosexual teachers who were not doing their jobs by firing a christian who sided with the supposed christian views of the university.

With that said, any teacher should not use the classroom to promote their views unless it is a class on homosexuality, religion or politics. If one is hired to teach english then that is the only subject matter that needs to be taught in the classroom. One is not doing their job if they are not teaching the subject they were hired to teach.

Re: Homosexuality Taught by Americans in Private Korean school

so it seems even if one is raised with a homosexual perspective (not necessarily homosexual yourself), one grows up more well adjusted:  http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/06/07/lesbian.children.adjustment/?hpt=T2.

dotoree, this link was a scientific study, meaning: this study did not have a bias for the outcome before it started the study.  the links that you provided are very biased studies or very out-dated.  also, using a catholic website to argue the basis for hetrosexuality is asinine:  the somewhat recent (and ever-ongoing) scandal in the church about pedophile priests undermines the logic...oh wait, i guess it's somewhat okay if the priests were only doing things to little girls, but we all know that wasn't true.

dotoree, you also talk about giving people all the relevant facts.  okay, so does that include evidence the contradicts your beliefs?  there is plenty out there.  please do more research and you will find that most of the information you gave in your post can be easily discredited by viable institutions who are not biased on the subjects.  this includes the belief of teaching about sex before marriage and homosexuality.  

people who are educated properly on sexual subjects, in a loving environment, usually do a lot better than those kept in the dark.  likening premarital sex and homosexuality to drugs shows very archaic and backward thinking.  most times, the damage that you talk about regarding premarital sex comes from the majority of people who are uneducated about how to do sex safely AND in a loving environment. most of the times these people are uneducated on sex because christian zealots oppose such teaching in the public sector and their family does nothing to prepare them for real-world experiences.  i'm not against promoting waiting for marriage to have sex, but  having safe sex AND a loving relationship does not require the marriage institution deemed by christian dogma.  unfortunately, given the divorce and annulment rates in modern society it appears that having sex (that's not always necessarily safe) does not require love in the marriage institution.  but then again, the marriage institution for many societies (including christian) had nothing to do with love for thousands of years.

you also mention:   In addition, it is not appropriate for foreigners to impose their culture on another culture when the habit they are trying to promote is so exceedingly destructive. That's just terribly immoral .   so then is it inappropriate for christian missionaries to come into a country and spread their dogma?   many times christian missionaries disrupt peaceful and loving societies when the try to enforce christian dogmatic beliefs upon those societies.   given your own logic, it's not only wrong but immoral.

Re: Homosexuality Taught by Americans in Private Korean school

I totally agree with Tim Avants. If it were a public school, the school administration might've been justified to terminate him. However, it is a Christian school, so there is no justification since homosexuality is clearly prohibited in both the New and Old Testments. Homosexuality comes under the classification of immorality, something that Jesus himself clearly condemned. He also said clearly that marriage is a man and a woman, so the school is clearly violating Christian principles. It's appalling that a school that is under the auspices of a Christian school would promote such behavior, especially since parents probably send their kids there due to the endorsement of a Christian university. He has every right to report this to the school's Board of Trustees. I wish him luck in this.

Re: Homosexuality Taught by Americans in Private Korean school

Sorry, with all due respect, I disagree. A Christian school teaching tolerance for all kinds of people (and their behavior) is disgraceful and against biblical Christianity. A Christian school should teach that sin is wrong and this includes homosexuality, as well as all forms of immorality. It should teach and honor the biblical law of God as alluded to in 1 Timothy 1:9-10, "realizing the fact that the law is not made for the righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebelious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching." Christianity isn't PC. It doesn't teach tolerance for all forms of behavior. It condemns sin.

Re: Homosexuality Taught by Americans in Private Korean school

The Bible says tons of stuff is wrong. You really want to teach Korean kids that they can't eat shellfish, wear clothes with two types of fabric, and then teach them the proper instructions for how to sacrifice a goat?

Because if your not telling them that a seafood buffet is a sin, I don't see why you're cherry picking the ones that involve two consenting adults having hot sex.

Re: Homosexuality Taught by Americans in Private Korean school

 scandalon, i hope you do realize that the quote you gave is not the original text of that passage.  it is the reinterpretation of translations of that passage.   also realize that your faith's interpretation is not necessarily the only interpretation of the bible.  

when christianity was first in it's infancy following the years of christ's demise/resurrection, there were numerous sects of christians with differing beliefs.  these different sects were mainly founded by the original apostles--but even among the original apostles there was disagreement on the teachings of jesus.  during the following 100 years, many books were written as canon's for these different sects.  but before and with the advent of constantine's roman empire and his decision to make christianity the official religion of the empire (after urging from his mother, yet during his lifetime he never accepted christianity as his religion--only on his deathbed), the roman's persecuted any and all christians.  rome decided on what was the true christian faith and decided to reinforce that faith with a "bible".  at Vatican I, this bible was compiled from the multitude of writings that existed at the time.  most writings that did not agree with the roman christian belief were destroyed (luckily, archeologists have been finding some of these forgotten writings).  

so i posit to you, is your faith roman catholic?  if not, why are you using the bible that reinforces its dogmatic beliefs when there are many other original christian writings from which to base your beliefs.  also, do realize there are numerous christian communities who do believe that homosexuality is acceptable because they see the bible as a historical teaching of christianity and that for every interpretation of the bible one can also find a counter-argument within the text. 

Re: Homosexuality Taught by Americans in Private Korean school

Hi Simms. There is some truth to what you say and some falsehood. Let me explain. What you said about Constantine is true. There was a lot of persecution of Christians under Diocletian before Constantine and a lot of early Christian writings were destroyed. However, the Greek Septuagint which Paul and the other apostles used was not erradicated. They relied on it before the NT was written. It clearly says in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 that homosexuality is a sin, even an abomination before God. Likewise, Jesus clearly taught that immorality is wrong in Matthew 15:19. According to the Bible, homosexuality is just another type of immorality. So despite all the other writings that came about (many of which were unrecognized by the church, some due in part to Gnosticism) the fact is that homosexuality was regarded as immorality and therefore sin. Read your Bible and leave all those questionable texts for the next DaVinci Code sequel.

"is your faith Roman Catholic?" No, it is not. I don't regard the Pope as the vicar of Christ on earth, nor Mary as a co-redeemer (as stated in the catechism). Today, there are many groups purporting to be Christian which believe and practice things clearly contrary to biblical teaching. It's called false teaching or heresy. The Bible's been around for quite awhile. If there is a clear counter-argument against homosexuality as sin, it would've been found. There is none.

Re: Homosexuality Taught by Americans in Private Korean school

Since homoexuality is clarly condemned in the Bible, it should not be taught as OK in a Chrsitain school. But what shouldn't be taught anywhere is the idea that a student can decide for him or herself whether a tradition or law is right and decide whether or not to obey it. This is already the modus operandi for many Korean drivers  here and some pedestrians. Teaching this makes an already bad situation much worse. I'm quite shocked that people would admonish Mr. Avants for being "greedy, prideful, or self-righteous" or intolerant. The kind of teaching he outlined is entirely  unreasonable! Do the rest of you drive- Do you enjoy working in a country where petty crime is low and its generally safe (aside from traffic) to walk the streets at night- If a citizen believes he or she has the right to make his or her own laws, this would vanish. Every one of you should call the university's board of trustees and have any teacher who teaches such drivel fired  immediately.  

Re: Homosexuality Taught by Americans in Private Korean school

Let's be totally honest here. Anything 'Christian' college or educational or otherwise in Korea is suspect. Just because a school has chapel once a week where the students MUST go, not because they want  but because it's required, how is that service to the lord?  Forced prayers?....reminds me of my time in Saudi Arabia when they would kick teenagers out of the mall and tell them to head to prayers!! Here, is't a good time to catch up on sleep and aid in the hangover process.   

Re: Homosexuality Taught by Americans in Private Korean school

Christians choose to prohibit homosexualilty because the 10 Commandments does and because Jesus did. Both prohibit immorality. However, they did not tell Christians they couldn't eat shellfish. In fact, Jesus declared all foods clean in Mark 7:19 (In saying this Jesus declared all foods clean) Therefore, Christians can eat seafood. Then he went on to say that immorality makes a man unclean. Included under immorality, but not explicitly stated,  is homosexuality.

Re: Homosexuality Taught by Americans in Private Korean school

Actually simms is 100% wrong. Constantine withheld his baptism till his death bed not his conversion and there were not many different christian beliefs and the disciples did not have competing ones.He distorts history to fit his anti-christian agenda. I do not want to go through his post and list each error  but suffice it to say he lumps all beliefs, both false and the one true one, into one category and tries to hide the truth.

Those who wrote their own canons were false teachers, cultists and the gnostics works were not written until the late 2nd to 4th centuries AD. Clearly the Bible is proven right about how the unchurched world is deceived and that they do not grasp the teachings of the Bible because they do not have the Holy Spirit.

Which is further underscored by Chilln's comments about what foods to eat as he does not realize that the dietary laws given to the Jewish people does not apply to NT christians. One correction on Scandolans last comment, Christian prohibition on homosexuality is because God said it was wrong, a sin and an abomination .

People who attack the Bible and christians do so because they do not grasp the teachings of the Bible and think it says something it doesn't.

Religion / Homosexuality / Happiness

How cares what the Bible says as it is just a book. Are we to follow what every book says. What makes this the Holy Grail of right and wrong? Hell, there are more Muslims in the world than Catholics. Should all women be wearing veils? This is the problem with the world today-everything is too black and white because of what religion 'has to offer'. Buddhism, Islam, Agnostics and so on all have a different say of what is right and wrong so one must find the middle ground regardless of religion and be more accepting of others.

As for teaching this or anything at schools, it is up to the school-not the teacher! We are here to teach english, not advise and lecture about what is okay for them to think, feel and do! If the school wants a lecture on homosexuality, I would hope religion had no part of it. All people deserve to be happy and seek love any way they want. Teaching that at schools on the other hand may be out of line but who knows?

Of course, I could be way off. I am getting ready to watch my Dutch team destroy Denmark and have had one too many perhaps...lol But I think the middle ground-finding things in common with people and letting people live their lives as they see fit, is a decent way to go. Love, don't lecture! Of course, I understand I have just sort of lectured but you know what I mean. There is a difference between opinions and telling people what is right and wrong for them.