General Job Seeking Advice

 What advice do you have for those looking for work in Korea?  What are things to watch out for and how can people find reputable employers?

Oh Please

 Hey Mr. Lee,

What, is it your job to shoot everyone down on this board? 

While your advice isn't totally off the mark, why can't you just let her ad go?  Why you gotta wave your cyber dick around?  She's looking for a variety of work.  She says so in the post - a uni gig is mentioned, but not exclusively.  Why must you try and make everyone feel inferior?  Why do you throw around your anonymous ego, as if you're the arbiter of pay and standards? 

Guess what?  You ain't.  You're a third-rate troll.  In fact, the tone of your one-note posts bears an uncanny resemblance to another cat who used to flame the old board.  Could it be that you are one in the same?  Or has the mantle been passed?

I happen to know who your namesake was.  He was blown up in Yangoon by a Nork bomb.  He was known for his savvy and sense of humor about his name.  Are you just taking the piss, or is it a real homage to a pretty decent diplomat?

I scored a uni gig after only 12 months in the country (no masters).  It is possible, though it's not likely to happen unless you have a hook-up at the the school.  I was ushered through the door.  Yes, I got lucky, but these things happen here, no?

I'm not about to get into a koreabridge pissing match... but really.  Have you nothing better to do?

''While your advice isn't

''While your advice isn't totally off the mark, why can't you just let her ad go? ''

Because she has no chance. I don't believe you got a job at a university only after a year either but whatever.

''Have you nothing better to do?''

I could say the same thing about your six paragraph letter to me, no pissing allowed.


You "don't believe" me. 

You "don't believe" me.  Well, I'm telling the truth.  I don't come here to lie to two-bit no-life trolls like yourself.

I think we should think of a title for you.  Maybe "The Gatekeeper?"  How about "Mr. Standards?"

I wonder how many people roll their eyes at your posts each day.  I'm thinking a lot.

Love and kisses,


No,I don't believe you. My

No,I don't believe you. My name is Al, I work at Kyungnam University. Now that I've showed you my willie, show me yours. I don't need to hide either.

That just shows the integrity of your university if they are willing to hire someone who has a years experience.  You must have a real great backpacking crew of collegues. 

Crossed the line

Well, this exchange has certainly crossed the line of personal attacks and insults.  I've let it slide because there's a potentially substantive conversation in there.  Guys, please tone down the personal taunts and focus on the issue at hand - the one related to job qualifications. 

My name is Chris and I got

My name is Chris and I got hired at Dong Eui University in '05 with just one year in Korea under my belt.  I'd done drama teaching at home but only one year ESL.  Now I work at Kyungsang College in Yeonsandong.  I've been here almost three years.  This is my sixth year in Korea.

[insult belatedly deleted by manager]

mod note: really folks, leave the insults and personal attacks out of your comments or they will be deleted entirely. 



I've tried to play nice,

I've tried to play nice, but you just keep attacking me personally for what reason? 

Because my school has hiring standards? Now I see why you are angry at my original post. I think you are biased but that's the worst insult you will get out of me.  

Hiring Standards

By whose standard?What do you mean hiring standards? I would put my staff up against any Uni in Korea. However, let's not kid ourselves about being real Professors. My friend that is an illusion , a delusion, which Koreans allow us. Don't kid yourself my friend. I would love to know your Uni's standards,especially after reading previous posts by you on this. Prove your point!How are your staff better than others?That's a big claim. Are you saying Dong Eui, etc , don't have standards?


I agree with you there. I'm

I agree with you there. I'm certainly not a real prof, I make jokes about what I do to be honest. I think a high school kid could do my job. I often slam people for playing the prof card.

Standards are not written in stone but they are kind of common sensual. We look for people over 3 years and not moving around too much, also married people seem to be looked upon favorably over single especially married to a national. They like F2s, that has nothing to do with education though and it's a sore spot for me personally. In my experience though most F2 people, even newlywed have been here 3years and that helps them meet the time requirements.  There are also age requirments, a 'prof' shouldn't be the age of a student returning from the army for his 2nd year. That's about it but it does eliminate many of the bull pen.

I'm sure your staff is as good or better than ours. I don't know how anyone could come up with a criteria to judge and judge what? The English level of students, the experience of the teachers?  Dong-eui probably has standards but it's got a bad reputation that's for sure. They go through teachers like I go through underwear about twelve a year.

Class at 6pm got to go.



 I too landed a uni job with

 I too landed a uni job with less than 3 years experience.  It's not "impossible."

Wise universities are looking not just for experience, but for the right set of skills and personality.  A nice set of degrees and experience in non-esl jobs are also assets.

I personally know at least 2 others who magically got through the "3 year" barrier.

Might be rare, but it exists.  Stay positive.

No problems from me

No problems from me manager.

I got attacked for being honest. With the amount of resumes I went through last winter I wonder how the majority of these people could honestly think they would gain employment from a university when they were/are armed with buckshot. Some of them actually had the gonads to call up and ask why they didn't get an interview.

Education in Korea is a cut throat industry, if you don't have the parts you aren't getting the job. This isn't 1995. 


I think you have to show more restraint in your postings, after all, didn't say you were done with posting here. I also know three or four teachers, who are excellent and don't have all the decorations you talk about. I have a hunch that you are not as qualified as you think you are. Outing yourself on here shows a lack of restraint, humility and won't serve you well long term. You may be a target for others who want your position. Posting recklessly, in a terse and frank manner will only alienate others, who are purely looking for advice. My advice is not to make it personal, it could be serious for you long term, should someone take offense. There are many people who work for Unis here, understand Korea and have been here ages. To be honest, you do have a habit of self flagellation and pontification. “Piece of Meat” rarely comments on the site these days. We don't often agree on much. I am surprised “Ewok “ hasn't raised his ugly head , and had a go at you, to be frank. The “Manager” has warned you on many occasions now, take it easy, you are trying to wage a war that doesn't exist.However, it seems you mean well and give lots of useful advice.Mind you, talking about money, etc, is vulgar in my mind.


I have a habit of telling the

I have a habit of telling the truth.

Outing myself here shows courage, apparently something people lack. I haven't been afraid of the boogieman in along time Angel. If someone wants my job or a job at my place send a resume. The powers that be (Koreans) are happy enough with me and that's all that really matters. 

If being direct and honest is a fallacy in this day and age than I'm happy to be such. If you think a year here is good enough to land a university position than you need to get your head read. Being white isn't good enough anymore, not at my school anyway.

This type of go with the flow lackness and no effert is what keeps us in the trenches and allows Koreans to harness us all into a collective of; unqualified foreign teachers no matter how many years I've been here.

uni gigs!

Wow. What a string. I would say things are changing here regarding hiring practices. Many schools are now taking advantage of the government program that pays the uni a certain amount of money everything month per teacher that they have. The uni needs a certain amount of "profs"to qualify for this so they are hiring a lot more these days. They really do like the f2 visas and those with experience of course but they are hiring newbies as well. My uni hired a woman with less than 1 year of experience. She actually had to quit her hagwon job to take it so anything is possible. That said, I know many people here who can not get a uni job even with experience. Like most places in the world, knowing the right people helps.

As an aisde, I think many people here really need to settle down. In person, getting the meaning from someone and where they are coming from is easy as 93% of the meaning comes from physiology and our tone of voice. On the phone our tone accounts for like 85% of the meaning. To get the meaning from someone's writing is difficult as our own emotions play a much bigger part so instead of attacking and jumping to conclusions, how about asking exactly where they are coming from-and then rip I love intelligent conversations but to defend positions on the back of ignorant comments seems kind of pointless. Saying you wont get hired can be seen as mean on here but the tone could very easily be one of actually trying to help. Who knows? This may not be the best example to illustrate my point but you know what I mean. Just my two cents worth of opinions-but better than what was written above by the peanut gallery folks. Sorry, what was your motive in saying what you did above? See, it is working What a pleasent bunch we are! Good luck all!

 You can delete my comments

 You can delete my comments to keep everything, "civil," but I said what has been needed to be said, and I believe it's the opinion of the board.

I understand the pov of the mods, but the fact that there are mods to begin with makes me bristle.

I stopped posting here ages ago because of the same reason.  I loathe censorship.  Let's just have it out.

That said, this is not my site, and I respect JLB's wishes. 

Gene??? Manager???

In learning exchanges Gene is offering tennis, bowling, safety driving classes, motor cycle riding, martial arts, magic, business, and so on lessons for 30 bucks an hour.  Business! The nerve!

Manager-how do you allow him to post this? Really! You edit people who trash talk but allow someone who has the reputaion that Gene does to post looking for people to pay him money for services he is no professional in? Just curious. What is worse, trash talking or a con man looking for ways to dupe people out of their money? Just wanting to know the parameters of your editing logic.

I am an expert in these fields Jay, let's..

These are my strengths, so let's put it to the test.

After all your flaming on koreabridge, why won't you let your actions speak. I welcome you to see me at work. However, if you want a 1-on-1 business negotiation or group session, there will be a consultation fee.

Once again, your vilifying tactics in outing me here is old story... and at the end of the day, none of what you say really matters to me.

Peace outside..

language exchange?

And Manager, how can he post his post in laguage exchange when he is looking for people to pay him money? It is an exchange but not really a language

And Gene, you are no expert at anything except maybe bowling but I would doubt tha to as everything else is a lie. And I have always been curious why you cling to life as if it is admirable being a former EPIK teacher? That brings you a sense of pride-not finishing up you contact because you were fired???

And bro, you are not a martial arts expert. You talk big but that is it. Anyoen can read up on a martial art man. You are no pool expert. You are average at best. Bowling I have no idea.  Business-NEXT! Safety driving classes in Korea-you have no car and have never driven here. And you do not even have a bike license. You may still have a bike but I think you sold that. You have a couple of card ticks and thats it. How are you an expert and how can you consciously ask people to pay you mony for any of this? And that is rhetorical. I do not want any BS answer.  Why dont you just teach and make an honest living insted of trying to rip people off? Just curious. Better than having no money and living on the streets dont you think?

Bro, get a grip. Really! We are all tired of you and your nonsense! I will not comment on your craziness any more and I hope the manager, who does not allow people ripping others verbally (in writing), stops letting you post on here. Surely a thief and cheat is worse than some light hearted bantering back and forth??? Good luck. I hope some where downthe line soon you see the light and get off this current path and do something meaningful with your life. And if not meaningful, admirable at least.

Drawing the line...


  You're quite right about the ad not belonging in learning exchanges.  It has been recategorized.  Censoring by reputation, however,  is nearly impossible to do.  If someone posts a job wanted ad and another person comments that this person is a bad teacher, should I then delete that ad?  What if another person then comments, 'I worked with them and they were a great teacher'.  Way too difficult and time-consuming to even try to draw that line, so all we can do is enforce the policies and try to keep the discussions on topic, which as once again failed with this thread.

Instead of talking about 'job seeking advice', many of these comments are more along the lines of "You're a jerk. No, you're a jerk".  All it takes is to allow one comment that crosses the insult line a bit to start an escalation of personal attacks and here we are. Some folks enjoy the flaming. I don't and don't want this site to devolve into another flaming board of nastiness that turns most folks way from the site. I'm all for free speech though and Chris (and anyone else), I very much encourage to post some of this stuff on your blog and let the commenting free-for-all take place there.  If you'd like to start another board somewhere, I'll be glad to direct traffic there for those who are interested. 

Around here, if you have something to say about the topic, post it.  If you want to call someone a jerk, send them a PM or post it on your blog (or as mom would advise, don't say it at all).  If you've got issues with site policies, post them in the Koreabridge Stuff forum or contact the manager


 Hey Jeff,  I'm sorry if I

 Hey Jeff, 

I'm sorry if I took a swipe at you.  That wasn't really my intention.  I do understand why you moderate the comments here - it is a bit of a necessary evil.  Sometimes I get sucked into the cesspool... imagine that ;)

@Lee:  I actually do appreciate that you advocate on the part of teachers' wages.  I've seen my real income go down in recent years when weighed against the increased cost of living.  I just think that you lay it on thick at times, especially when trumpeting your good gig to the folks that are working hard in the hagwons.  My personal philosophy is that we're all in this gig together, and we should encourage each other.  

I do get carried away PoM. I

I do get carried away PoM. I have a good gig but I think I deserve it after all the years here. Oh, there were schedule changed recently and I have more classes so the dream days are now gone, such if life. Shit happens right?

Something you brought up that is a concern; inflation. I don't give a shit what the bank of Korea says in regards to inflation it is real and it is eating us alive. Perhaps not in rising prices so much but in amounts of what you get. Portions are smaller? Anyone notice this. Perhaps for chubby pricks like me it's a good thing but it's a result of inflation.

I have been somewhat aggitated lately because of last minute scheduling and getting the shaft with overtime pay in the amounts of what a jja-jjang-myun delivery boy might make.

I'm sorry for that, I will try to be more positve in the future, I hope you accept my apology.

lol gene

A biz consultation will cost me? What, the money from my dresser when I am not here? You really are out to lunch. And as being your strengths, that hardly makes you qualified to teach them for money. I have seen you play pool-and you are not that good. As for the safety stuff and so on, whatever. Creative but still ridiculus.

And to both Gene and manager, don't you need a D-visa to post these kinds of ads? It is like he is running a consultaion biz on here but that is not legal. You can not legally charge somene for services without it being registerd with the tax office; and in order to do that, you need a D-visa. This is totally illegal. Even F-visa peeps like myself can not make money like this. You need to put 50g into a Korean bank first and get an investors visa. Posting for pt work is okay but this, no way.

And Gene, immigration could easily make a meeting with you and then bust you for tax fraud. They do go on here so even though this whole scheme is ludicrous, be careful. Probably not really the smartest thing to do. This advice is free. No fee required!

and about Gene

As far as Gene is concerned:  He comes to this site pimping whatever he can to make a buck.  I know that he's struggling and prefer to let him have a go at it rather than ridicule him.  I know he rubs some folks the wrong way, but I know him personally and wish him luck.  After all, is he really hurting anyone?  I would argue not. 


this piqued my interest...

"Standards are not written in stone but they are kind of common sensual." - LBS I re-read the thread and LBS also said "if you don't have the parts you aren't getting the job." and "Outing myself here shows courage".

What is one to think of your hiring standards? 


to LBS

I was only trying to introduce a bit of levity. I think you wanted to write "common sensical"....ah well, I amused myself anyway. Carry on!

"this piqued my interest...

"Standards are not written in stone but they are kind of common sensual." - LBS I re-read the thread and LBS also said "if you don't have the parts you aren't getting the job." and "Outing myself here shows courage".

What is one to think of your hiring standards? 



I know him to so to say he is not hurting anyone is kind of crazy. You must really not know him. He flat out cheated at cards (stole chips from someone else) and stole money from someone up in Seoul. I talked to the guy and he told me exactly what went down. He was looking for him down here via cops. So how is this not hurting anyone?I also know he still owes people money down here. I guess this is a matter of perspective.

 There is nothing wrong with being broke or homeless. In fact, that is sad. But to come on here and try to con people out of money is not okay. He is no professional at anything he claims to be in including pool, martial arts, magic... So while I wish him the best (get a job and make an honest living), coming on here and trying to con people is hardly okay. I told him as much yesterday. I really wonder if you have ever really talked to this guy because if you did, you would realize he is not all there. Buyer beware!

They aren't my standards,

They aren't my standards, they are the schools. You can take a resume and figure out pretty quickly if you want to hire a person or not. Multiple years in country is a plus, multiple years in country and the same location is a real eye opener. People do get universities jobs sometimes with limited time in country, I haven't seen it personally but from what I've read on this thread it happens a lot more than I ever thought.

The new thing is F2, no experience required just find a Korean woman/man to marry you. Now around 90% of F2/F5 visas are south-east asian woman married to Korean men and legally they could teach English under the immigration guideline yet I don't think MOE guidelines would allow it.

Jay, I clearly see your hidden agenda

This is Jay's hidden agenda: Divide and Conquer and Divide and Profit.

It's that simple, anyone with a business degree can see right through you. Weed out those who pose a great threat to you economically. It's all about the "Economy of Scale" and "Long Tail Economics." Your F.E.A.R. witch is entirely illusory, pertains to vilify me and any competitive Gyopo at all costs. And that includes making personal attacks, in which, you have no real evidence except your own made up bulls**t story! LOL@U!

Get Real. Wake your mind UP!

Please...everyone just move along. Enough Said.


Google me: Universal Astraltheology

Dear Gene Why don't you just

Dear Gene

Why don't you just answer the accusations that have been put up against you? 

I don't see Jay making a buck off of any of this. What are you talking about? No more mis-directs, no more cloak and dagger, no more pyramid schmes or Amways of infinate wealth, no more private messages asking what all of this has to do with us and why do we care.

You'd think a person in your situation would want to clear his/her name. Here is your chance. Fire away!

Hang him

I say hang him- if he's guilty !(lol)Leave the guy be! Everyone has their skeletons,let him find his own path. I don't know, I don't care , la a l ala lalal! F--- it!Gene, just get on with your shite, good luck, focus on the good. I'm sure,none of you guys have a clean slate, so lay off!Let's be honest, many people here are masquerading as teachers, who are the con men now!



I am sure none of us have cheated amongst friends and stole from fellow expats. All the lies-sure everyone lies but not like this. I wonder if Angel is Gene???


Who cares? This is not about Gene, or you, give me a break!Actually,I think you get quite boring with your nonsensical rants.Normally, you comment about things that you seem to know very little about. Take your ego out of the equation. Try forget about Gene. How does he affect your life now? Please,give us all a break?I am bored of reading Gene this, and Gene that.Let him live his life and you live yours, OK ?This Gene stuff is about as interesting ,as ironing grass.Please stop bleating on about privates, money ,etc, it's vulgar.He is not my friend, I don't know him. I don't care about him,but at least he is an interesting character.How did this topic get back to Gene?Some would debate that you are cyber stalking him.


I too know Gene personally. 

His antics are well and honestly documented in this thread already.  His inability to confront or deny them shows his guilt. 

I completely agree that trying to peddle services while masquerading as a professional is out of order.  Gene is not a professional anything. FACT.

I hope that for his sake he realises this and attempts to live an honest life.  To others and himself.  Stealing from fellow expats is the lowest thing anyone can do here.  

Gene, the best advice I could give is this.  Go home.  No malice intended.  I think it would be for the best.  You have no job here.  Doubtful you have permanent residence anywhere.  Very few friends.  Back home you have family.

Keep doing what you are doing and you will find yourself in real trouble.  Even if its something like stealing from the wrong guy.


lol Gene

I am here to get rid of the So I am starting with you-a guy with no money, job, home, prospects and in fact have to resort to stealing to live? What a joke! I help people get money. I am on here daily blasting jobs that do not pay enough. If anything, you should take advantage of this and actually get a job.

No one wishes ill upon you but you really bring this all upon yourself. Please look into the mirror and see this. Take some resonsibilty for your life. Trash talking me is such a joke. Get some help. Do something other than try to scam people. That is not going to fly in our community.

So Gene, I agree with the earlier post and it is something I have said before-it is time to move on as Korea is not working for you...pun I would say if you dont want to go home move to Seoul or something but I guess you cant move there can you so it is time to leave. How everyone could be wrong and you so right is something you really need to think about. Good luck!


Can we please return to the topic, drop it or dedicate a whole forum to this fella.Manager can we please have a warnings forum.Let  it be upon the individual if they get sued for misrepresentation.Who cares about Gene? Not me!

Too Personal

I agree, Angel. I'm still trying to figure out how and where to draw the line between honest community feedback and the kinds of posts that can cause legal problems and/or major managerial headaches, but I'm pretty sure that several comments (some already deleted) in this thread have crossed that line. 

It's one thing to say, someone's post is inappropriately categorized or inaccurate because of x. It's another to use real names and  list specific defamatory claims (even if they're true). It is usually difficult or impossible for us to verify these claims and the whole thing just has far too much potential for inciting flame wars and causing those aforementioned managerial headaches. That's why I have no real interest in starting a 'warnings forum' either, although I'd certainly be glad to point folks to the site of anyone who would like to set something like that up. 


Grab your pitch forks!!  We should find Gene and burn him on a bonfire on Haeundae Beach and let that be a warning!!!   To all who don't meet the criteria to be judged on this forum!!  

Seriously - I thought witch hunts had finished in the middle ages.  The guy has been tried and condemned on this forum!!     I thought a democratic society has a judicial service for people who have done wrong!!

I am not a religious man, but, the saying he who is without sin cast the first stone comes to mind!!! 


Angel, I would talk circles around you with a thee word vocabulary. If people want to come on here and make money-and is a fraud, people have the right to call him out. That is how business works. And if this site is going to let him try make money illegaly, I do not think it is too much to let people comment on him. Your defence of Gene is kind of mind boggling as well. To say you do not care but post how many comments about him is strange. Flat out that guy should never be able to post on here. If he is going to steal and cheat from us, surely letting others know about this is okay. Give me a break Angel. Obviously you have no clue. Time to turn the light on my friend-or at least poke your nose out from the cave you have been living with. Your postings are ignorant at best. Cheers.



  Firstly, you post is unnecessarily insulting.  You can disagree with Angel and make your point without saying you can 'circles around you with a thee word vocabulary' or that 'his postings are ignorant at best'. Is it so insulting that it violates our policies and should be deleted - I'm going to make the judgement call of 'no' because you don't really have a history of these kinds of posts and I want to follow-up on another part of your comment. 

You say  'that guy should never be able to post on here'. As I mentioned before here and here, it is very difficult to ban people based on reputation.  Can you please suggest some specific language that you think should be added to our posting policies that would accomplish this kind of site ban in a fair way and describe how you think it should be enforced?


Just defending myself chief.

My only point I would make regarding this site is if enough people call wolf, then it must be. For one, what has been said about Gene by many people is true-he cheated, stole and so on. Secondly, what he is doing is illegal. We do not need more problems in our comminuty. We are already under a microscpoe. If something goes wrong, it is "look to the foreigners". He has no investors visa but wants people to pay him money for his services. Even if he was a professional in anything it is illegal but in this case, he has no special skills that qualifies him to give safety driving lessons. That is absurd.

Perhaps you need to clean up the site-like posts from him, and then you would never have to weigh in on these debates. It is hard to say but he sent me a message saying he had a right to make a living and I agreed-just as I do letting people know who he his and what he has done. I have always said to him good luck and so on as I wish him no harm, but there is no way I want newbies to be swindled by this guy. They should know what is and what isn't. And it is jsut not me, there are many people posting about him so...

This is just education-similar to popsting about low paying jobs.  I live here. I make my money in teaching/business. If anyone hurts that or makes it harder to be trusted and make money, I think we all have the right to post commets. As for Angel, he was a little insulting as well to be fair. My only point was if he is defending a PROVEN cheat and thief, what is his angle?

Anyway, in the future I will watch my words but I will not hesitate to make posts and share my opinions as at the end of the day, that is all we really have as expats. People can choose to believe things I say as I offer a lot of advice on here to people, or they can coose to believe people like Gene. It is up to them. But tow sides is surely better than one. Imagine jobs getting posted for 10 bucks an hour and we can not comment on them. People may start to think this is normal and then what? Education is not a bad thing as then at least ca cna make some sort of an educated decision. Thanks!

With a resume like that

Moved from:

 With a resume like that he can wait for a decent job and not any job.

Vets I know certainly couldn't go back to a hogwan under any current circumstances. With paid vacation in the form of months, not weeks, the day/s off a week and other perks(sports week, festivals, MT, misc.cancelled class/entire days).  Hogwans would have to start at 4,000,000w, we know that's never going to happen.  

If hogwans really cared they'd up the ante, they don't. Why? because it's just easier to mail order English teacher addition Ken and Barbi right out of the fresh degree box.(experience not needed and batteries not included).


ha, So tell me were you not


So tell me were you not " fresh out of the degree box" when you first came here? Or were you made specifically to be the english master teacher you are?

You generalize way to much. 

appreciate the kudos

 anyway you could help me out? point me in the right direction, that sorta thing. slim pickings these days

Been the , done that!

Yeah, but he's been there , done that, a proven commodity, unlike the other guy!Your cockiness is unwarranted.He probably wouldn't have been arrogant enuf to apply, when he first came.That is a major problem I see with the youth of today. Great expectations and mostly whiners, they think it should(good jobs) be their's automatically.We did our time years ago, laid solid foundations for you. Please don't disrespect the people in the good jobs.Conditions are much nicer these days.Nowadays,we live with the I can do it type, well.I got news for you, no you f--kn can't.

  Who are you? Who are you to


Who are you? Who are you to say how long anyone has been here?

Who are you talking about? Been there done that unlike the other guy? What other guy?

Your post are so confusing.


I replied to you

Confused my rrss.You have proven you can read,whether you can grasp reality of what LBS meant, is another thing.Who am I? I am the someone who despises tripe.The fact you replied so quickly, shows you know exactly who I'm replying to.You were obviously irked by my comments about newbies, too bad!!!!!!!!!!