Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

In August this year South Korea's constitutional court upheld a 59 year long ban on having abortions.  South Korea banned abortion in 1953 with exceptions for rape, incest or severe genetic disorders. 

This may come as a surprise for anyone living in Korea who keeps their eyes and ears open. With my close connections in Korea I have known a number of Korean women of varying ages who have had abortions.

This week abortion hit the headlines with a case of an Indian woman in Ireland who was refused an abortion despite being in severe pain from the pregnancy.  She later died of septicemia brought on by an obviously invalid pregnancy.  So are Korean attitudes to abortion similar to those in Ireland, a country which has the same laws against abortion?  The answer is that, strangely, despite the similarity in guidelines, the two countries are poles apart.

Abortions in Korea take place in hospitals and apparently sometimes without anesthetic because hospitals have to register each time they use it, and since abortion is supposed to be illegal they do not want to do this.

The most shocking thing about abortion in Korea, however, appears to be the flippancy and the ease with which it is undertaken, made even more surprising because it is against the law.

UN statistics estimate abortions to run at about 20 per 1000 births in Korea, which is exactly the same as the US (there must be a lot of rape, incest and/or genetic disorders in Korea as abortion is legal in most of the US), but in Korea many abortions go unreported.  I would shudder to think of the actual figures; this is a problem that could be getting out of hand.  The behind closed doors and prudish nature of the Korean people towards sex could also be causing a lack of knowledge in the family planning department.  Fear of family reactions to news of an unwanted pregnancy or a pregnancy before marriage may also push young people to have abortions in secret.

Back in England I had known a few people who had abortions and it literally wreaked havoc to their mental health, causing some level of depression in everyone I had known to have the procedure.  The women I knew who had abortions were guilt-ridden and clearly emotionally damaged by the whole experience.  What I have seen in Korea does not match the consequences of abortion that I saw in England.

The process itself is obviously never an easy experience and as a man, and someone who has not experienced it through a partner, I cannot comment on the procedure itself but I cannot imagine it is pleasant. 

But it is not so much the speed of the physical recovery that is shocking but the mental recovery and the relative ease with which some of the Korean women, and their partners I have heard about, come to their decision.  Sometimes the reasons for their abortions have seemed of mere inconvenience rather than a genuine problem of bringing up the child.

Being a non-religious man and erring slightly liberal in my political opinion, I am actually in favour of pro-choice and not of a ban on abortions generally, but it still troubles me when it looks like such an important decision is taken without too much due care and attention and appears to not overly perturb the person in question.

Of course, it should not be a surprise that Koreans do not follow this law banning abortions.  Korean people are regularly quite selective with the supposed requirements of their government.  Think of traffic laws (as I have said before there must be some), employment laws - such as those requiring Koreans to work no more than 40 hours a week unless they are paid overtime (there is a loophole that says maybe 52 hours but they even exceed that) - and rules on dog meat which Korean Food Sanitary Law states is an illegal food ingredient and the Seoul Metropolitan government categorizes as 'repugnant food'.  All of these rules and regulations are flouted everyday in plain view of anyone who cares to look and not bury their heads in the sand.

It is the social attitude towards it all, though, that is most disturbing of all.  To my eyes it is as clear as day that the value and sanctity of life is not as high here, whether it be human or animal.  This also includes the care and treatment people and non-humans receive during life and not in matters of just life and death.

For another example of this, I needed to not look any further than my own Korean family.  My uncle in-law used to have two Jindo dogs (a famous and traditional Korean breed)  for a number of years.  While they were alive they were rarely if ever let off the short leash that they were tied to outside their house in all weather (it can get seriously cold in Korea in winter).  The younger dog would still get excited when anyone came near, desperate for attention, but for the older dog it did seem that his life had broken him and taken away all of his spirit.  To make a sad story even sadder still, I went to the house for dinner a couple of months ago and the dogs were not there, they had both been sold to the dog meat trade.

Can we seriously think that people would do the same to a pet in the West?  There are obviously cases of abuse but these are among the poor, the uneducated, and the trouble-makers in our societies.  In the case of my uncle in-law and his family they are a perfectly pleasant and nice Korean family in every other respect.  It is clear that this is a cultural attitude and not a case of a few rotten eggs, that's the difference.  A further reason for thinking this way was because of the amount of students I have taught who had dogs in the past but told of how their parents had sold them for dog meat also.

The case of Koreans eating dogs is old hat and to be fair not many people do it anymore, but it has always been the treatment of them that has aggravated me more.  They too often display a callous lack of respect for the animal's life and I believe this also shows in their attitudes towards abortion.

Bring up the issue of dogs around a Korean and they often point to the hypocrisy the West shows towards animals, after all we keep pigs (and other animals) in small pens and kill them, with the average pig life having vastly more suffering than a pet dog in Korea.  They are in a way correct, but whilst logically I must agree, I have a moral intuition that there really is something special about a dog.  We have had a faithful partnership with them for thousands of years and it shows in how we dote on them and vice versa.  It feels like the betrayal of a trusted friends and I feel this guilt on behalf of everyone that does not care about their welfare.

The same argument can be made with abortion.  I recognize, and agree with the views of  people like Peter Singer who draw a comparison between abortions and killing animals for meat.  He says that a cow, for example, will suffer far more than an unborn fetus with a nervous system that is not fully developed.  Therefore, if we are so concerned about a fetus we should be, in fact, more concerned about the cow.  Again, there is great logic in this and perhaps he is 100% right and that it is just because we all merely favour our own species, but I have a niggling sense inside that we should not be so frivolous with the unborn, and abortions, although allowed, should be as a last resort with all the alternatives carefully considered.  This is not the feeling I get from many of the people I have talked to and learned about in Korea, who must for obvious reasons remain anonymous.

Of some of the older Korean women I have knowledge of, some have had multiple abortions and although I have obviously no idea what is going on inside their heads, I don't sense that much remorse in them, at least certainly not on the level that I could see in women in England.

Of course, you could throw the argument on its head by saying that we in the West are too caught up with the issue of the sanctity of human life.  The West has a Christian tradition and even if people are atheists like me, much of our moral intuitions are shaped by almost 2000 years of Christian culture.  Before the Christians, infanticide was a common cultural practice in ancient Greece and Rome, where parents would leave their sometimes only slightly disabled children on hilltops to die of exposure or even throw them off of cliffs.  This wasn't done because they had no heart or moral sense - indeed the Greeks, especially, had a famous and solid grasp of morals that was much ahead of their time - they simply had a different cultural philosophy.

In Christianity, the church ingrained a special value upon human life, even from the moment of conception which puts an extremely high value on all life.  This high value might seem a wonderful thing, but has consequences itself in stopping us from ending lives (even our own) when a high degree of suffering is making life not worth living, and obstructing possible life saving (and life improving) scientific research, such as that done using human stem cells.

Korea does not have a Christian history imprinted on the cultural make up, it has a Confucian tradition which values social harmony and the group.  With this way of thinking, individuals are not necessarily special, it is the group that comes first.  Under this line of thought it is therefore understandable to me how it might be easier for some Korean people to handle abortions with less emotional importance.

There are obviously Korean people and indeed Western people who reject or accept certain parts of their cultures to greater and lesser degrees and this is not applicable to everyone, but the pattern of behaviour cannot go unnoticed.

I am not a fan of Christianity and think we need to move on from it more quickly than we are doing, but it did give us this important sense of value of life, which although needs tweaking a little, is nonetheless quite precious.  Maybe, however, we could do with meeting Korean culture somewhere in the middle and perhaps the guilt experienced by many women from abortion is really quite unnecessary, a hangover from deep lessons of Christian inspired history and while abortion should never be taken lightly it could be thought of a little less gravely than it is currently in the West.






Comments

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

 

There are so many problems with this that I don't even know where to begin. Let's start with the shaming part, shall we? 

No one (male or female) should ever be made to feel ashamed for having an abortion. Suggesting that someone is not sad enough, or regretful enough, is moralizing at best and sexist at worst. It is also simplistic and underinformed. People get abortions for a lot of reasons; the chief reason being that a child is just not wanted - period. In Korea, single or pre-marital parenthood limits job opportunities, financial possibilities, and is seriously damaging to family relations to a far greater extent than in the west (where single parenthood has become fairly common). Deciding to go ahead with a pregnancy carries serious consequences, primarily for the woman involved. Suggesting that she is not *sad* or *sorry* enough for having an abortion in such circumstances (as opposed to being relieved, excited, or just relaxed after the stressful experience) is naive, shows a lack of empathy and is incredibly arrogant. Within marriages, unplanned children can be a disaster or an inconvenience and either way it doesn't matter. Nobody needs you to tell them how they should feel (what is the 'moral emotional response') before, during, or after such an experience. The choice for abortion should be as easy as the choice to have a child, if someone is so inclined. 

Moreover, extending this argument to include wider attitudes towards the sale of dogs for meat is just insulting. I'm not sure who you're insulting more; women who choose to have abortions or Koreans as a whole. All that you've established is that your western friends are sad after an abortion (at least, to you), your Korean friends seem unaffected by it (to you), and your Uncle doesn't value a family pet the way you would like him to. Trying to link this into a wider pattern of 'not valuing human life' due to religio-cultural differences is pious, colonialist, bigoted thinking. Go read about the crusades, inquisition, and witch-burnings etc etc etc. 

If you think that you have a case to argue that Korean culture places less value on human life than Western cultures do then do it properly. Read some books, consider it carefully, and collaborate with a Korean colleague who can give you a greater insight into what you clearly don't understand. What you've written here is a collection of gross generalizations based on anecdotal evidence from an uncritical perspective. I'm sure you're a nice guy who thinks of himself as a liberal 
egalitarian. If you feel that way, then take this to heart and consider the weight and impact (to you and others) of drawing such a conclusion uncritically, before you make the decision to start thinking this way. 

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

Go over the article again and quote the part where it says women should be ashamed to have an abortion,I don't think you will find it.  I merely expected women here to be as upset as those I knew from back home, and they weren't, and as I said in the article I was shocked and I even admitted that I could not know exactly what was going on in their heads.  You have drawn the conclusion that by saying we should not be casual about the issue of abortion this means that women should feel ashamed.  A quote from the article should also clear this up:

"perhaps the guilt experienced by many women from abortion is really quite unnecessary"

Just to make things clear, I do not think women should be ashamed of having abortions, merely that the decision to have an abortion is a major one and should not be done lightly.  The following quote should also clear me of being sexist.

"but the mental recovery and the relative ease with which some of the Korean women, and their partners I have heard about, come to their decision."

Extending the argument of abortion to treatment of animals is relevant to try and unearth any species bias we might have.  There are also many studies linking unethical treatment of animals to unethical treatment of humans, it is relevant.

It is also impossible to cover every subject in one article, the crusades, etc. 

You are right about one thing, the evidence is anectdotal to some degree, maybe my sample is not representative.  However, the fact that there are many abortions that are not registered is taken straight from Korean doctors who have done the procedure, as my wife was a Korean nurse and knows them personally.  Do also bear in mind that this is not a scientific paper but an opinion piece.  I am quite happy to be proved wrong or argued out of the thoughts expressed in the article (name calling is not helpful), but these are patterns I have noticed and I am honestly writing about them.

 

 

 

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

Where do I start? You wrote this in seriousness didn't you? So, only 'poor, uneducated and those that cause trouble in our society' are cruel to animals. Are you for real? I've never heard such an ignorant comment in my life. So to answer your question, yes people from all levels of western society can and are cruel to animals. I was going to write more regarding this 'article' but, as the old saying goes, 'don't respond to a fool or you'll be like him'.

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

It's a controversial issue, and you've rustled some feathers heh.

I personally think the reference to animals is very relevant. As you said, I believe there would be a link between our value of animal life and human life. To say there is none degrades animal life. To say there is a link certainly does not insult women or undermine the decision for abortion. 

See, this is a controversial issue. You have made an opinion piece and these people want to come and crucify you for it. I Agree with you on several points actually. Christian culture vs. Confucian culture etc etc. 

I think it's a good piece and I don't think you insulted women or either culture. You are speaking from experiences, in England and in Korea, and commenting on the contrast. 

 

 

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

Here are some sources, articles, and studies that back up my observations in the article. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-vognar/animal-welfare-poverty-_b_156... - on the link between the poor and animal welfare. But I admit I could have phrased that particular sentence better, maybe 'much of' or 'most of' animal cruelty takes place in poor areas. Below are a number of articles that may validate my point about the casual nature of abortions in Korea. http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/terminating_koreas_abortion_cul... http://articles.latimes.com/2009/nov/29/world/la-fg-korea-abortion29-200... http://www.thekoreanlawblog.com/2007/11/abortion-in-korea.html http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/IES/southkorea.html#9 Below is taken from, an admittedly fairly old study (1996), but does seem to back up what I have noticed. C. Abortion HYUNG KI CHOI AND COLLEAGUES (REDACTED BY HUSO YI) In Korean law, an induced abortion, defined as the removing of a fetus before the twenty-eighth week of gestation, is allowed in cases of genetically inherited diseases, transmitted diseases, incest, rape, and those cases that may greatly harm maternal health. However, it has been used as a form of contraception in Korea, and the number of induced abortions runs between 1.5 to 2 million cases annually. There are 600,000 newborns in Korea each year, and the number of abortions is nearly three times the number of deliveries. The total number of abortions in Korea is the second highest in the world. One out of two married women has experienced an abortion. Eighty percent of abortions are done for gender-selection purposes, using an ultrasound scan to ascertain the gender and then selectively abort female fetuses. Those who seek abortions for reasons defined by the law account for only 20 percent of all abortions. Unmarried women have 18.5 percent of the induced abortions; 26.5 percent of these women were between ages 16 and 20. The overwhelming majority of women who had an abortion, 77.9 percent of married women and 71.3 percent of unmarried women, reported satisfaction with the results of the abortion. This reflects, perhaps, the fact that abortion has become commonplace in Korea (PPFK 1996).

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

Excellent response Anbergeron, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Also the OP makes a very interesting choice when he uses the incredibly loaded term "human life" to refer to the parasitic entity inside a woman that eventually grows into a human being.

 

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

Excellent additon to the discussion Dogarse...

I am no "pro-life" extremist, I am not even sure where I fall on the spectrum concerning this issue. However, to refer to the fetus as a "parasitic entity" is cold and inhumane at the very least. 

Do I see the correlation? Sure. 

Parasite " parasite lives in a close relationship with another organism, its host, and causes it harm.  The parasite is dependent on its host for its life functions."

If we all thought of the fetus as such, then I doubt there would be a human race. Furthermore, if animals could realize this fact too, well there wouldn't be any life at all! Who needs all these free loaders! They are such a burden, contributing nothing and taking everything. (Sprinkles of sarcasm...)

Anyway, to be clear, I would probably classify myself as borderline agnostic/atheistic (meaning, I am a cynical agnostic or hopeful atheist, whichever..) My thoughts don't reflect my religious views, although I was regretfully raised in Catholic schools. 

The fact that we are alive even having this discussion is a point to support the protection of unborn fetuses, one could argue. You happy your parents didn't abort you because of your parasitic tendencies? I certainly am...

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

 

Alright, here goes. 

Allow me to re-iterate my point. It’s as though you are attempting to make couples (women) who've undergone the procedure in question to feel regret or shame over their decision. As though, if they weren't sorry about it before, they had better be sorry now. More importantly, if they still don't feel regret and shame for having an abortion then they just don't value life as much as you do; or, if they happen to be Korean, then they've done a disservice to the reputation of their culture (in your eyes). To use your words:

"The most shocking thing about abortion in Korea, however, appears to be the flippancy and the ease with which it is undertaken" 

Your use of the word ‘flippant’ here is telling. To be flippant is to have a lack of respect for grave or sacred matters. In essence, you’re suggesting that the lack of remorse, sadness, gravity, or shame that Korean women hold towards this issue means that they 1) value life less than women in your home country (to be more precise, the few women that you’ve talked to in your home country), and 2) are less moral because of it. This is shaming, moralizing language that also holds an inherent bigotry in favor of (what you’ve determined to be) Judeo-Christian morality.

"But it is not so much the speed of the physical recovery that is shocking but the mental recovery and the relative ease with which some of the Korean women, and their partners I have heard about, come to their decision.  Sometimes the reasons for their abortions have seemed of mere inconvenience rather than a genuine problem of bringing up the child." 

It should come as a surprise to no-one who writes on this topic that abortion heals faster than pregnancy and childbirth – mentally as well as physically. If you’re going to write an opinion piece on anything, know about it beforehand. This is just ignorant. And again, you’re using this moralizing language. There's nothing shocking about deciding to undergo a procedure, especially when time is of the essence in terms of health and safety of the woman involved (the earlier, the better). It’s especially un-surprising when you consider the existence of the ‘Abortion Fund’. In a country where abortion is illegal and expensive (the U.S included) many women just keep an ‘in-case-I-need-an-abortion’ fund (roughly $2500.00 USD).
Also, last I checked, inconvenience IS a genuine problem in raising a child. Suggesting that there is a better or worse reason to opt for abortion is also moralizing and shaming. Again, the onus is on Korean couples (specifically women) to come up with a better reason to opt for termination – otherwise, they just don’t value life as much as you do.  

"but it still troubles me when it looks like such an important decision is taken without too much due care and attention and appears to not overly perturb the person in question."

If the person you've talked to is unperturbed (to you) about the procedure, then they clearly didn't need to take (what you would consider to be) due care and attention, did they? They took all the care and attention that was required of them to come to the right decision for themselves. Otherwise, they wouldn't be so 'flippant'. Again, you’re casting judgment on Korean women for their lack of gravity or emotional turmoil post-abortion. You’re admitting that you find it troubling when these couples seem carefree about their decision, while at the same time suggesting that your western friends care too much – something you seem to be untroubled by because, to you, it is the more moral – and natural – reaction.

"but I have a niggling sense inside that we should not be so frivolous with the unborn, and abortions, although allowed, should be as a last resort with all the alternatives carefully considered.  This is not the feeling I get from many of the people I have talked to and learned about in Korea, who must for obvious reasons remain anonymous."

"Of some of the older Korean women I have knowledge of, some have had multiple abortions and although I have obviously no idea what is going on inside their heads, I don't sense that much remorse in them,"

Every time you broach this issue, you’re using the same pious tone that casts judgment on Korean women for their attitude post-abortion. You do this over, and over, and over again. I don’t think it was an accident or poor wording; it’s the core of this article. And yes, it is shaming.

"It is the social attitude towards it all, though, that is most disturbing of all.  To my eyes it is as clear as day that the value and sanctity of life is not as high here, whether it be human or animal.  This also includes the care and treatment people and non-humans receive during life and not in matters of just life and death."  

Now to the heart of the issue – the sheer racism inherent in this piece. Conflating widespread animal abuse and high rates of 'flippancy' regarding abortion procedures with placing a lesser value on the sanctity of life is what I call bigoted and arrogant, to the highest degree.

My issue with your article is less about the abortion issue. Everyone has an opinion on that, and everyone gets to weigh in, and I get to think that you are wrong. My problem with this article has everything to do with the bigotry inherent in it. You’re relating that women in your home country are more remorseful about having had an abortion, and that women in Korea are flippant about it. Your choice of words is very loaded, and very telling. IF you conflate pregnancy with life, and IF you value life, then you MUST be remorseful about ending that life, right? The implication here is that remorse = moral, ‘flippancy’ = immoral, and following the logic then your home country = ‘moral’ and Korea = ‘immoral’. Adding the qualifier that western culture values life too much is an artificial attempt to equalize what you see (according to your article) as an injustice against various forms of life in Korea.

You’ve also explicitly stated that you believe Korean culture (specifically, or all Confucian-based societies? ‘cause you didn’t say) to place less value on the sanctity of life than western cultures. All you have to back that up are a few abortion-related stories you heard, and that your uncle sold his dogs to the meat market. If this is all it takes to convince you that a fundamental aspect of human civilization is somehow deficient in Korean culture (that is empathy), then you are just as arrogant and racist as I’ve been suggesting. You can post all of the abortion-related statistics, anecdotes, and etc. that you like, but it really doesn’t help your cause. Anecdotal evidence and abortion statistics only tell us that abortion is common, some people don’t seem to be sad about it, and one guy treated his dogs poorly. As I said before, if you think that you have a case to argue this, then do it properly. Look at Korean history – one of recent poverty, and traditionally high infant mortality. Remember that westerners are very removed from the process of death and dying (additionally, aristocratic Joseon history also explains the pets issue to some extent). The treatment of animals is also different across all cultures around the world. There is no normal, and animals that are valued in some places are just not valued in others. Adherents to Hinduism probably find our treatment of cows barbaric and morally lacking.

I think you have something important to say here, but you’re not doing it right. You’re being lazy, and you’re not making it past your own biases. I would recommend that you look at Confucian and Buddhist philosophy – what do they say regarding life, death, and the value therein? How does that contrast with Judeo-Christian philosophy? How does the experience of history affect those philosophical underpinnings in the society in question? Most importantly, collaborate on it with someone who lives (or lived) within this culture. You can only see this from your perspective, one which is privileged, wealthy, and fundamentally opposed to what you’re exploring. Keep writing, but do so responsibly and be aware of the harm that articles like this can cause or re-enforce. 

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

 

"Now to the heart of the issue – the sheer racism inherent in this piece."

"If this is all it takes to convince you that a fundamental aspect of human civilization is somehow deficient in Korean culture (that is empathy), then you are just as arrogant and racist as I’ve been suggesting."

 

Interesting that you spend so much time and energy attacking his choice of words. 

Your respect of semantics should be respected.....and yet...

Do you actually understand what racism is? Are you suggesting Koreans are a race? Certainly you don't think so. That is unless you are an extreme Korean nationalist who is trying to classify Koreans as a pure blood, pure race, one to be added to the texts. If so, I applaud your mastery of the English language.

Ignorant, stereotypical, biased, prejudiced, generalizer, anti-korean, some of these can be used, if that is your opinion of his piece, certainly NOT racist.

But you hope to win this argument now by reducing him to a vile RACIST! So you seek to dehumanize him, attack his character.

Haha, I would respect your retort to his article, yet I cannot, you are a hypocrite. You attack him for shaming women with abortions, then you try to degrade his character and piece into the work of some bigot. 

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

Do we live in an age where having an opinion can actually be classified as racist? God I hope not. If you don't like his opinion or piece, sure, but that doesn't entitle you to bring out the big "R" word to discredit him. You tell him not to be lazy, and yet I think you have been lazy classifying him as such when you should have spent more time and more words conveying your meaning. 

He has spent time in Korea, and there CAN BE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN TWO CULTURES, and he can have an opinion about it! 

This is his subjective opinion, based on his experience, who are you to call him a racist for it. His piece is NOT AT ALL RACIST.

This is a waste of time explaining this.

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

 

 

Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion. But opinions can be racist (of course). Suggesting that Koreans have less empathy or that Korean culture values life less than western culture, without taking adequate measures to support that opinion, is racism. Backing up a racist opinion with heresy, generalizations, and a shallow and simplistic view of culture (which doesn't take into account history, philosophy, politics, religion, language, class, etc etc etc) is lazy and irresponsible. 

This kind of writing only helps to promote harmful stereotypes and sets back any responsible exploration of what (I feel) are actually important subjects. The guy needs to temper his writing with diligence and integrity. Unfortunately this article shows neither. 

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

"Suggesting that Koreans have less empathy or that Korean culture values life less than western culture, without taking adequate measures to support that opinion, is racism."

Again, wrong. Perhaps it would be ignorant and a hasty generalization at worst, certainly not racism.

Let me try to help.

"Asians have less empathy and value life less than Westerners." Even this is difficult to classify as racist. Are westerners a race? Western nations are comprised of so many different ethnicities. In fact, this could even compare Asians in the east to Asians in the west! How on earth could that be racist

"Asians have less empathy and value life less then (insert race)." Bingo. Now we can classify this argument as racist.

How about this -" Saudi Arabian men are less rational and are more patriarchal than Western men."

Am I being racist? CERTAINLY not. You strike me as someone who respects womens rights, especially their right to govern their own body. Women can't drive as men do in Saudi Arabia. Am I being racist to classify their people as such? To generalize all men there could perhaps be ignorant, as all men there would not support this law. However, the statement itself is not racist.

Lawyered.

 

 

 

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

Furthermore, I don't even know if you are following this discussion or trying to win one over on the OP. You haven't commented on Dogarse's statement, referring to the fetus as a parasite. Is this because he gave you support, the "thumbs up"?

I've always thought that humanity's greatest flaw was arrogance and pride. A lot of knowledge, if not most, can be gained through experience, mistakes, and from others. 

By nature we are an arrogant species, and we debate with such determination that we cannot be wrong. We are right, always. However, this isn't the case, and I think it takes a great person to admit they are wrong on something, and learn from it.

I hope you do not continue to debate that your labelling of the OP as racist is a correct statement. I hope you can see the error of this and learn from it. 

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

 

Craig made an excellent point (and I thank him for defending my character against accusations of racism), I think you are confusing race and culture, which is vitally important.  If we cannot criticize culture we really do have a problem, and indeed we do currently have problems because of this.  In my country female circumcision is against the law, as is arranged marriage of minors under 16 (as it should be) but we rarely, if ever, prosecute offenders because they are in a minority Muslim group (usually from North Africa) for fear of being labeled ‘racist’.  In fact the accusation of racism in this case most surely has to be reversed; we in England discriminate because we would prosecute white (whether they were British or not) people for doing the same thing, protecting young girl’s rights, but seeing as they are in a Muslim community (and have the same colour skin) our police forces don’t want to enforce the law.  This is racism and discrimination.  Actively not calling out a bad cultural practice and attitudes and doing something about it.
 
 
The case is not as clear-cut perhaps when it comes to Korea and abortions, but dismissing some of those sources I provided is a little lazy, I think.  The source from 1996 is old but it should mean that my point is taken seriously.  Back in 1996, abortions were going at nearly 3 times the number of deliveries.  I’m not sure how that is not a cause for concern.  The figures these days might be a lot better (official abortion stats do not take into account abortions done illegally, however and an estimate of that would need to be considered as the more current sources state) but it certainly makes my point worth making as the statistics would back up the conclusion that I am making.  If you think this is a healthy rate of abortions and that there is no cultural reason behind it, then fine.  The conclusion I draw from these figures and observations is that many people have a casual attitude towards abortion in this country, and I think that is a justified conclusion.  Whether this is OK or not I also mused about in the post especially in the last paragraph.
 
 
Your point about the argument I made about animal cruelty is also missing the point.  I would appeal to any reader of this post to deny that the general treatment of animals (especially dogs) is worse in Korea than in our own countries.  Seriously can you really deny this rather easy observation to make?  Having one good example of it does not cheapen the point, I could write about a thousand other examples if you like, but I fear it would be a waste of writing space.
 
 
I cannot also help but notice some contradiction in what you say.  First you accuse me of arrogance and racism, so I assume you think I am wrong about their attitude towards the sanctity of life and then you go on to say: 
 
 
“Look at Korean history – one of recent poverty, and traditionally high infant mortality. Remember that westerners are very removed from the process of death and dying (additionally, aristocratic Joseon history also explains the pets issue to some extent).”  
 
 
This seems to confirm that you think what I think and that history explains it all.  Confusing.
 
 
Finally, if you saw a man run over and kill a child in his car (and be totally blameless in the incident, the child ran out onto a busy road) and look completely unflappable afterwards, casually laughing and joking with his friends while the police dealt with the body, would you not be a little surprised with his attitude?  Before you shout accusations at me, I know this is not the same thing as abortion, but all I am saying is that I was shocked by the appearance of indifference to abortion in women and men in Korea compared to back home.  Now, I could be wrong, maybe they are good at hiding emotions like the hypothetical man in the car accident, but with statistics to back me up I think it is easy to see how I could come to the conclusion that the value of life (a fetus and animals at least) does not appear to be so high.  The important thing is to not discriminate against each individual you meet based on a perceived trend in their culture at large.  So, for example, I do not treat every Korean I meet as a moral inferior to me or any Western person, if I did I am pretty sure I would not have married a Korean.
 
(something wrong with my computer and koreabridge as my replys come out without paragraphs)

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

Good examples used. And yeah haha that was difficult to read without paragraphs.

We live in the "politically correct" days. Say anything that can be taken as "negative" about a culture and you are RACIST.

"You don't understand, it's a different culture, how dare you say that, arrogant westerner, how dare you apply your cultural values to a different culture. You are culturally ignorant." 

I hate this.....at times it is right, but it is not always right. There are universal things we all agree on. You shouldn't murder, steal, rape. All men and women are equal. 

Saudi Arabaian women shouldn't be able to drive? This is something we should chalk up to as "cultural" and we can't understand it. To say it's wrong is ignorant/RACIST?

Female circumcision is a cultural thing, not to be judged from a cultural perspective? To say its wrong is ignorant/RACIST?

How ridiculous. We should approach each topic with the utmost cultural sensitivity and never use your cultural perspective to judge others? NEVER? Is western culture perfect? Certainly not. Are parts of western culture better than others? Yes. Are parts worse than others? Yes. 

 

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

To say that it is wrong for Saudi Arabia to ban women from driving, is not racist.

To say that Indonesians look rough so they must beat their wifes and thats wrong, is racist.

To have an opinion about a known fact of a culture is OK. To draw conclusions about a nationality/ethnicity/culture or making up your own facts can be ignorant can it not?

I've lived with women all my life and I still can't understand how they feel. The writer can not only understand the feelings of the women he share cultural backround with, but also women from completely different cultures. Were they conveying their inner feelings in halfass English or in Korean?

I have a friend that had his property destroyed by a Brit and I remember that 2 years ago there were riots in England with a lot of vandalism. I draw the conclusion that Brits don't respect other peoples property. I think it's because their ancestors went around the world and stole land from people, making their countries into colonies.

If a Korean is considering hiring a Brit to a hagwon, I will tell him that the Brit values life a lot, because of their christian culture, but they won't respect your property. Brits won't hit the students but will steal office supplies. It's their culture.

if you think my analogy is stupid, imagine how I felt when I read "Attitudes to Abortion in Korea".

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

The OP's argument rests on the premise that human life begins at conception and that the act of abortion is equivalent to the taking of a human life.  The OP goes to great pains to point out that he is an atheist however the premise he bases his arguments on is a religious one, not a scientific one.  If one does not consider a fetus to be a human life then how can one's attitude towards abortion reflect one's attitude towards human life.

If we wanted to measure the value that a country or culture places on human life wouldn't it be much better to look at the rates of murder of actual human beings rather than abstract entities that are religiously defined as human beings.  If we look at murder rates the same way the OP looks at abortion rates we would find Western Countries having far less respect for human life than Korea.

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

 

 

I never said that it's racist to express a negative opinion, or make a judgment call, about any aspect of any culture in any of my comments. I did, however, suggest that it is racist to make broad generalizations about a culture based on  nothing but anecdotes and hearsay. Perhaps ethno-centric is a better term, but in the social sciences it's often used interchangeably with racism (as race in a construct built more on cultural than biological differences). 

Of course there are aspects of Korean culture that I find abhorrent - the treatment of animals is just one example. It's not helpful to anyone to ignore the differences - both subtle and obvious - between any cultures. With no way to remove ourselves from ourselves, the only way to view difference is to compare another culture to our own. I take no issue with anyone expressing an opinion, and if your article was limited to the scope of the title, I wouldn't be writing any responses to it. The anecdotes and links that you provide justify your thesis that yes, Korean people have a tendency to be irreverent regarding abortion. Whether it's important that people treat abortion with the gravity that the OP suggests is another matter entirely. 

What I'm taking issue with is the larger conclusion being drawn here, when you argue that, because of high abortion rates, a lack of gravity regarding abortion (among those you've spoken with), and a fairly widespread problem of irresponsible pet ownership, that Korean culture is one that places less value on life - that has less respect for the sanctity of life. THAT is an ethno-centric conclusion drawn with no consideration of - well, anything. You've left out everything: history, politics, philosophy, language, religion, class, policy . . . all that you have to back that up is anecdotal hearsay. THAT is what I'm calling out as ethnocentric (racist), shallow, and simplistic. Again, if you feel like this is a point you'd like to make, make it properly. 

An ethno-centric (racist) opinion backed up by anecdotes is racism.  

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

Your point is well made, and the difference you point out does exist, although the sources I stated seem to show that I have more justification for these views than just one or two stories.

The main problem with your comparison, however, is actually telling someone who is thinking of hiring to think twice because some Brits might not value property.  That is discrimination and racism.  No where in that post did I make any such suggestions and would never do so.  I would never treat a Korean different from anyone else, I would value them as individuals who could either embrace or conflict with their own cultural values.

I, and every Brit should also take seriously any claim that we, for example, don't respect property, like you said and try and find evidence ourselves to see if you were right.  I would not call you a racist for saying it, if it was a pattern you had observed and had some justification for thinking it, which I think I had in this post.

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

Think we have a problem of semantics here.  

A fetus is a human life because it is human and it is alive.  What it is not is a person, with thoughts, feelings, desires, etc.  My argument certainly does not revolve around this.

A fetus does have value, though, may be not as much as a person, but there should be consideration for its welfare.  I certainly do not consider it a parasite.

When you talk about murder rates, we have to look at the motivation for not murdering, which could be more complex than you make out.  Is it out of empathy for an individual's life, to keep social order, to not get into trouble, to obey orders/societal norms, etc?

Also, be careful, the murder rate in South Korea is higher than almost all countries in Western europe, NZ, Australia, and Canada (in fact about twice as high as all of these).  It is only lower than the United States.  Murder being a heavily punished crime skews things a lot.  Abortion in Korea is simply not punished (which is a good thing) so it is difficult to compare the two.

 

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

The imaginary employer asked of my opinion of brits and I gave it. You painted Koreans as lacking respect of life on a public blog. Just because one of us did wrong doesn't mean the other didn't.

I think anbergeron's last comment summed up what I felt, in words I could not find.

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

This may come as a surprise for anyone living in Korea who keeps their eyes and ears open. With my close connections in Korea I have known a number of Korean women of varying ages who have had abortions.

Translation: While most Koreans would never share this information with a foreigner, I happen to be privy to this information because I was the father. Paying for those abortions pissed me off. Those women are such… well, read below. You'll find out what I think of them. Don't forgot to notice how I don't offer a single word of empathy toward my "close" friends..

 

Abortions in Korea take place in hospitals and apparently sometimes without anesthetic because hospitals have to register each time they use it, and since abortion is supposed to be illegal they do not want to do this.

Translation: I could be saying this really is barbaric and Korea needs to reconsider its policy towards abortion, especially since: 1. Unwed mothers have no resources and few job opportunities. 2. Unwanted children are rarely adopted as Koreans view blood ties as extremely important. 3. Children of divorced parents are often shunned. 4. Koreans go to prison for debts, that includes debts incurred trying to feed a family. 5.Even though babies are well caredfor in orphanages, the children will face a lifetime of social stigma. 6 Life in Korea is so great they've had to wall up the subways to stop people from jumping in front of trains.

 

The most shocking thing about abortion in Korea, however, appears to be the flippancy and the ease with which it is undertaken, made even more surprising because it is against the law.

Translation: Remember, I could have been saying that the abortion law in Korea is barbaric. But what I'm really saying is that I support anti-abortion laws. Well, what I'd say is something like, "I'm not against abortion, but since it's illegal, these women ought to be ashamed because their breaking the law." See, I don't say abortion is bad. I save that for later. Whatever you do, don't have enough insight to consider my perception that Koreans are flippant and easy about abortion might be wrong. Or perhaps influenced by my opinion of Koreans in general.

 

UN statistics estimate abortions to run at about 20 per 1000 births in Korea, which is exactly the same as the US (there must be a lot of rape, incest and/or genetic disorders in Korea as abortion is legal in most of the US), but in Korea many abortions go unreported. I would shudder to think of the actual figures; this is a problem that could be getting out of hand.

             Translation: Don't conclude that abortions go unreported in other countries too. Do draw the moral conclusion that Koreans are bad because they are breaking the law. Do conclude that Korea is facing an epidemic.  

  The behind closed doors and prudish nature of the Korean people towards sex could also be causing a lack of knowledge in the family planning department.  Fear of family reactions to news of an unwanted pregnancy or a pregnancy before marriage may also push young people to have abortions in secret.

Translations: Koreans or not only flippant but prudes. I've also added in one potential cause to persuade that this isn't biased or negative towards Koreans. I've got also got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

 

Back in England I had known a few people who had abortions and it literally wreaked havoc to their mental health, causing some level of depression in everyone I had known to have the procedure. The women I knew who had abortions were guilt-ridden and clearly emotionally damaged by the whole experience. What I have seen in Korea does not match the consequences of abortion that I saw in England.   

Translation: Due to the social phenomenon of shameless single motherhood, the ex-girl friends of me and my buddies wanted to keep the babies but we knew exactly what to say. I'm also saying that woman who don't have emotional problems after abortions are bad. See how I snuck that in there. Now, watch me transfer this to a whole race of people.

The process itself is obviously never an easy experience and as a man, and someone who has not experienced it through a partner, I cannot comment on the procedure itself but I cannot imagine it is pleasant.

Translation: I'm denying any culpability before we get this party really started.

 

But it is not so much the speed of the physical recovery that is shocking but the mental recovery and the relative ease with which some of the Korean women, and their partners I have heard about, come to their decision.  Sometimes the reasons for their abortions have seemed of mere inconvenience rather than a genuine problem of bringing up the child.

Translation: Koreans are cold, heartless monsters.

Being a non-religious man and erring slightly liberal in my political opinion, I am actually in favour of pro-choice and not of a ban on abortions generally, but it still troubles me when it looks like such an important decision is taken without too much due care and attention and appears to not overly perturb the person in question.

Translation: I'm denying my views before I give them. Koreans are don't struggle with abortions like my people do and that makes them bad.

Me: I can respect your opinion even if I don't agree with it. I can't respect someone who denies their beliefs a second before they share them. Oh, and this article isn't about abortion at all. For someone who claims to be a close friend, you've not shown an iota of empathy for your friends situation. Furthermore, you sure do seem to have a lot of friends who have abortions. You're either the father to a lot of these children, or you're lying to support your argument. I hope to god you're just a liar using abortion to support the idea that Koreans are somehow less human than "us." It's pretty amazing that this is just racist verbal diarrhea is the upside. (Because if you are the father to a lot these children and are posting crap like this then it's no wonder the women you knew back in England landed in the nuthouse. And we got to give props to the Korean girls for not letting you abuse them emotionally as well.) I could keep going, I've made my point.

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

So judging by what you said about their history explaining differing attitudes to life, and now it seems you agree with me on the animal cruelty issue, and agree that my sources seem to show they are irreverent about abortion, it seems that you agree with me much more than you were letting on.  They make my anecdotes look a little less like anecdotes on their own but examples of a more widely held opinion.  Both of these admissions on your part make my observations in the post relevant about a wider judgement on their culture.

The article also set out a logical reason for making such a judgment about the sanctity of life in Korean culture.  A group centred culture is more likely to shun individuals when they are not considered part of the group.  It is no coicidence that the concept of human rights arose in the West with a culture centred on the individual.   This is a point I have made and given more examples and sources of in many of my blogs, which often include points on philosophy, politics, history, etc.  Please read them if you do not believe me, I cannot squeeze everything into one post.  The logical point alone makes the comparisons worth making.

Communism is a group centred political ideology and the history of this makes my point clearer.  

I would also add that the article was far less clear-cut than you think about about judgments of right and wrong.  I suggested a compromise right at the very end because it can be argued that too much of a high regard for human life can be a bad thing.  Continue to call me racist, but i think you are continually mixing up race and culture and if people consider them to be interchangable, then they are wrong.  I do not discriminate against any Korean, if i started saying things like all Koreans should have psychological screenings before an abortion, or call into question individuals motives over any other individuals of different nationality or culture, that would be racist.  I have done no such thing, nor ever will.

 

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

Nice stories (sorry translations).  Almost all of these stories are entirely in your own head; name calling, story telling, and all not ways of making an argument.  Think I have now done all my explaining, think me a racist if you like, I can assure you I am not and nothing I wrote suggests it.  Reply to 24, not 23.

Reply to 23 - sorry, read again, never said Koreans had a lack of respect for life, just said I thought it was higher in the West.  Of course they have respect for life, and I argued there should be some middle ground between the two cultures.

Re: Attitudes to Abortion in Korea

Nice stories (sorry translations).  Almost all of these stories are entirely in your own head; name calling, story telling, and all not ways of making an argument.

Translation: How dare you call me out on my BS! I'm so offended and my panties are in such a bundle I'm gonna need a crowbar to pry loose the wedgie.

Think I have now done all my explaining, think me a racist if you like, I can assure you I am not and nothing I wrote suggests it.  Reply to 24, not 23.

Translation: Despites the amount of explaining I've had to do, I am so unselfaware I can seen nothing in my original post that could have contributed to these responses.

Reply to 23 - sorry, read again, never said Koreans had a lack of respect for life, just said I thought it was higher in the West.

Translation: See, I don't have anything against Koreans. It's Asia in general. Ok, well, if you paid really close attention to my first post, you'll see I feel this way anybody not white or from England. But I keep that bias closer to the vest.

Of course they have respect for life, and I argued there should be some middle ground between the two cultures.

Quote: The most shocking thing about abortion in Korea, however, appears to be the flippancy and the ease with which it is undertaken, made even more surprising because it is against the law.

Quote: Back in England I had known a few people who had abortions and it literally wreaked havoc to their mental health, causing some level of depression in everyone I had known to have the procedure.  The women I knew who had abortions were guilt-ridden and clearly emotionally damaged by the whole experience.  What I have seen in Korea does not match the consequences of abortion that I saw in England.