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Pay???

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Jay Vander
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Joined: 10/19/2009
Pay???
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What is going on here? 13 000 WON an hour for kindie? 20 000Won for 3 weeks at a hagwon. 18 000WON an hour for another kindie job. Why is the pay going lower? Well, people keep on taking these jobs and keeping EVERYONE'S pay down. This is crap pay people! My wife is Korean and makes 25 or more per hour for teaching English. Why are you taking less? Go back home if you think 13 an hour is good money because you can more there. Part time should be at a minimum 30 a class-not 18 an hour. Are you kidding me?

People bullshit and say the economy is bad but that is crap. The reality is people here are too ignorant (literal sense meaning not knowing) too realize they are being ripped off. If the economy was bad, apartment prices would fall and full time pay would as well. But apartment prices are on the rise on full time pay went from an average of around 2mil a month to 2.2 in the last 2 years. Unemployment has remainded steady and people's wages have also gone up. So why is part time pay going down? To many illegal teachers who do not know any better are being hired by shady schools trying to save a buck and that leaves people who actually live here hurting for reasonabe jobs.

So what is the solution? All I am willing to do is keep posting things like this and tell people to stop taking these crappy jobs.  Have some pride. Think about this.

2.2 a month salary

350 housing

100 airfare

150 bonus

That is over 2.8 a month. But when a school offers 1.6 for 3 weeks doesn't that make you wonder where the money is going. It is going into the schools pockets as well as the teacher who is leaving. They still get the bonus (which logically you should also-why are you working to help them get their bonus) and so on but all you get is the salary. But it is part time. You get paid more. That is how it works here. The other kinde job-9 to 5 for a mil. Come on. Ridiculus.

Smarten up people. Stop being so greedy and see the big picture here. Taking these jobs keeps wages down for everyone-you and your friends included. Stop thinking only for yourself. And if you think this is okay, how would you like it if people who only think of themselves start going to immigration and turning in others who are teaching illegally. Same thing right, self preservation? Youtake food from someone else's mouth how is different they do the same to you? I could never do that as, well, it is not my style but I can not speak for others (obviously or people would not be taking these crappy jobs...lol). And besides, I am just trying to make a point for those who think they can do whatever they want to. Yes you can, but so can others so be smart. So think of all of us who are trying to make a buck and stop taking jobs that are killing the market. If no one takes them, the pay has to go up which is good for everyone. Cheers!

PS And for those who want to argue with me, I am just trying to help everyone out here. I have never seen the market place like this before. It is troublsome especially when you actually live here. People pop in and pop out but there is a large community of regulars who actually are teachers and this is how we make a living. Do what you will but please be respectful of others, especially if you are wanting the smae back. Thanks.

hockeyrick
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Joined: 08/03/2009
No teacher should get out of

No teacher should get out of bed for less than 40K, un;less ur a 22 yo moron fresh out of community college!

johnhenry
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Joined: 11/18/2009
I know it's fashionable in

I know it's fashionable in certain circles to bash community colleges; however, that shows the ignorance of the basher.  Furthermore, regular teaching jobs here (not the TALK program) require a bacherlor's degree, not an associate's.

dlee
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Joined: 09/18/2009
Jay, What you say makes great

Jay,

What you say makes great sense in theory but the reality is that it's all about supply and demand and right now, the supply greatly outnumbers the demand.

Try posting a job offer on pusanweb and see how many people apply? It's insane these days! I have over 50 qualifed people on the waiting list for jobs in Busan so I too have never seen anything like this before.

I would love to see salaries in Busan go to 2.5 or 3.0 million Won/month but right now, I'm just thankful that it hasn't dropped to under 2.1 or 2.2 million!

As for the part-time jobs, they are what they are. I make no money off these posting as they are just a favor to schools I know. Lots of people apply, I forward the e-mails to the schools and they contact the teachers and decide on the hiring. If you want more money then ask the school directly! If they really like you then they probably will pay more. If they don't then they probably won't even reply.

As for the price of p/t, I agree that 40,000+ Won/hr should be the going rate if you are teaching 1 or 2 classes as you are having to commute there and back. I personally wouldn't take less and have gotten much more in the past.

If it's a longer day, I don't see 25,000 Won/hr so bad especially if you are teaching 6 hours a day, which is the norm. That's 150,000 Won/day, 750,000Won/week, 3,000,000Won/month CASH! I often go and sub at schools for a week or so and I won't take less than 25,000Won/class or 30,000Won/hr but I doubt schools will pay more.

40,000Won/hr for 6 classes? That's 240,000Won/day, 1,200,000 Won/week, About 5,00,000 Won/month CASH. Years ago, I knew someone that did this but she was going to different places for each class so it was a lot of traveling. If someone can get it for a 6-hours shift then great! I'm all for that! But right now is probably not the best time as there seems to be too many people in town wanting jobs. Lots of F-2 and F-4 teachers and even more E-2 visa holders wanting p/t work.

lee-bum-suk
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Joined: 10/26/2009
''I have over 50 qualifed

''I have over 50 qualifed people on the waiting list for jobs in Busan so I too have never seen anything like this before.''

 

Really? Qualified meaning alive? If this were true then why would you even have to post ads? You wouldn't. Some of your ads you have had to post over and over again.

.

dlee
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Joined: 09/18/2009
"Qualified" as in they have

"Qualified" as in they have all the necessary documents ready to get an E-2 visa and are waiting for a job in Busan.

Like I mentioned in my other post, the p/t jobs are just a favor to the schools. I make no money off of them at all and personally, I really couldn't care. All I do is send resumes to schools and they can negotiate whatever they want. The schools contact the teachers after that, not me!

And these are p/t jobs that I have posted as you have been so quick to remind!

If you think the jobs suck, then don't apply. How simple is that? However, there are enough people in Busan right now that are out of work or don't have very much work and in need of cash and a job. If you think I am taking advantage of them or doing them a disservice, that's fine and you are entitled to your opinions. But the people that get those jobs have mostly thanked me whether they liked the schools or not and if I meet them somewhere it's a good story to tell most of the times. These are p/t jobs so it's a quick buck for a day or a week or a month and in most cases, they would not sign up for a year. I'm sure that just as many schools are often unhappy with the teacher they are getting and would probably not sign them for a year. But they need someone for the day or the week so they do it. It's a 2-way street! And as it's p/t, if the teacher hates the school or the school hates the teacher, they can leave or cancel the next day as they aren't tied into a contract.

If this doesn't make sense to you then that's fine as well. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. Again, we are talking p/t jobs!  If you feel proud of yourself because you talked someone out of taking a job that they wouldn't like then good for you. I have no qualms with that. However, if it's your intention of debasing people because they are willing or needing to take a job that you feel you're too good for, then what more can I say? I know people in Canada that think teaching in Korea is a joke. Maybe they're right but maybe they're wrong??? Who know? And what difference does it really make?

Jay Vander
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Joined: 10/19/2009
normal pay?

Well, I do not know who decides what is decent pay or not or what is qualified but being here for 7 years makes me think I know a think or two and one thing is 25 an hour is not good. In fact, people are talking like this kind if bantering is negative but the reality is, the job in Daeyeon had been posting for 20 an hour since late last year. They hired in the past at 20 an hour. No one took the job now the post is 30 an hour. A little calling out is not a bad thing. I am not knocking people personally, I am commenting on wages and this is something that affects all of us. So while people rip me for being negative (which is personal), I am merely trying to make schools and recruiters pay decent wages by calling them out (which ironically is positive dont you think?). It is hard to defend pay from 10 years ago.

As for qualified, we all know many people here, well, are not the greatest teachers. As for a waiting line of 50 people, that is hard to believe. The inflation rate here is crazy and the exchange rate sucks. Back in 2002 2mil WON was almost $2500 Canadian. Now is is like $1800. A 4 pack of yoghurt used to cost 800WON but is now 2200. Put that together and you have no reason to come here thinking you are going to make god money-unless you work lousy pt jobs...lol I do agree with supply and demand but when talking about pt jobs, other than many teachers looking for exta work because they took a job that pays lousy, how many legal teachers are out there?

One huge problem here, other than too many recruiters taking a piece of our pie, is the amount of schools hiring illegal teachers. But that is life here and I will not cut off the hand that used to feed me. I didn't always have a f2 visa...lol The other problem, super schools like Avalon are taking over. It is like a Super Pet moving into the area and putting out of biz the small local pet store. They are machines and they use foreign teachers like parts on an assembly floor.

And Lee is right, costs (fees parents pay) at schools and so on have risen dramitically over the years but the pay has stayed the same. Time to bump that up guys (recruiters/schools). Of course, they are fighting inflation to and so on so it is a viscious circle but we always seem to be at the wrong end of fairness. There is a hagwon association and they do have regular meetings and I am sure they are trying to do what they can to make money and keep costs down at the same time-meaning our wages so we need a voice. I am just fighting for the working man here people. Hate me for it, put me down, do what you will but I am okay with trying to do my bit. Allagory of the caves people! Good luck.

lee-bum-suk
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Joined: 10/26/2009
As an F5 visa holder I doubt

As an F5 visa holder I doubt you have many of us the payroll. You didn't address the fact of why you need to post ads if you have this bull-pen waiting. That is enough for me in itself. Avoiding such a simple conclusion makes you look like you are grasping at strays or hoping people don't understand what they read or can't add one plus one.

That's leaves E2 people(your words not mine) and you saying you get them part-time work quickly is impossible to do legally.  Part-time work takes at least a week or two turn-around time and documents required by immigration include a full-time schedule from your present employer among other things. In my experience and knowledge of this there aren't many hogwan directors that will tolerate their foreigner(s) working elsewhere, oh...you have free time? well here more work for you!! usually they will not concur to this addition to the visa.

Therefore most or many of these part-time jobs you get hogwans are indeed illegal because you are providing E visa people without the proper addition to their work visa.

Now you will come back and say you do, you don't. You provide a quick fix for people by your own admission and that equals illegal employment period. E2 people should be aware that there are severe consequences if one is caught outside the scope of one's job; fines are the minimum and usually a renewing of a visa is iffy.

dlee
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Joined: 09/18/2009
LBS, Why is it so hard to

LBS,

Why is it so hard to understand this???? Are you purposely trying to be irritating!

If a school ask me to post an ad, I do. Why is this so difficult for you to comprehend? It's a part time job so I'm not going to scrutinize it as if it was a full time job! There is no 1 year contract and the job is what it is! Just as I'm not going to do a reference check or scrutinize the teacher that's applying! I forward e-mails to the school! That is the end for me! Who they hire or what they agree on is up to the school and teacher. Why do I care what is needed for the visa or no visa? That is something the school can work out. And for this reason, they usually hire f-4 or f-2 teachers! I mean what school is going to actually file paperwork for a 1 day job or a 1 week job? That is why I usually post that the school wants a F-2 or F-4 visa holder! Have you actually read any of my job posts or do you just see the title and see 25,000Won and your eyes go red with anger? You obviously didn't read my post as when did I say I get E-2 visa holder work QUICKLY? I said E-2 visa holder WANTING!!! So read, then digest what you read before going on the attack!

If the job is long term, like months or a year, then the school would be willing to do the paper work! This is where E-2 visa teachers usually come into play.

And yes, there are many teachers but how do I know if they are in need of a job or not? If someone is looking for a p/t gig for the first week of Januray or for the month of January, does that mean they will still be looking for p/t work come March or come July? I'm not going to keep people's resumes on my e-mail so for every seperate job, I post an ad, forward the e-mails and then delete the e-mails. Make sense so far?

As for people waiting for a job in Busan with E-2 documents, how does this apply to p/t jobs? Is the teacher going to fly into Busan for a 1-day or 1 week job? Why would I be offering someone in Canada or the US that wants a 1-year hagwon job a p/t job in Busan? Would you go to Toronto next week for a 1-day job? It's not like p/t jobs are offering airafre!

Now if this really doesn't make sense to you then??? I don't know??? Post whatever you want becasue I will not reply on this topic again. You're in Busan so let me know when you're going out in Gwangali or Haeundae and I'll be there. It seems maybe you're a real tight @ss! I'm curious to see who you are and maybe I can explain it over a beer! Maybe you're a fun guy after you've had a beer or two?

 

lee-bum-suk
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Joined: 10/26/2009
Bottom line: these

Bottom line: these part-time jobs are illegal for E-visa holders and you are aiding in the process. There is no grey area here. This is a fact. E visa holders should be aware that outside of employment is illegal and you plat the game at your own risk. Eventually you will get caught.

Thanks for the offer but I'd rather not drink at all.  

dlee
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Joined: 09/18/2009
Obviously, you still haven't

Obviously, you still haven't read my original post.

windupbird
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Joined: 01/17/2010
acutally

 It is legal for a person with a E-2 visa to work a part time. One can get a letter of permission from their current boss, and go to immigration   to submit it along with their new part time contract. Once this is done immigration will add both jobs to their ARC.  You should probably be fact checked more often...

I know this for a fact also... 

lee-bum-suk
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Joined: 10/26/2009
You are correct but these

You are correct but these people aren't doing that. That's my point! You need to read my posts before commenting on them. They can only do this if it's a registered language institute.

Jay Vander
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Joined: 10/19/2009
looking for holes?

I find it funny people who argue on here based on small holes (obvious ones) in people's positions. Writing about how it is legal for e2 visa workers to get part time jobs is a joke because we all know most never do this legally. If immigration really wanted to they could round up so many teachers in such a short time because they are teaching illegally. And on top of this and back to where this all started, it is these teachers that take jobs for lousy pay and that sucks. There is no arguing around this! If schools had to pay for legal teachers 25 an hour would not exist; nor would 30 for that matter. The average person already makes close to this when you factor in housing, bonus, airfare and so on so stop saying 25 is good and so on. It is a ridiculus argument.

And for those who say this is complaining, do you really think I am sitting here typing angrily?...lol It is all a joke. Korea is a playground. I love it here. 2 cars, 3 bedroom apt with ocean view, make great coin every month because I have jobs that pay what they should...  I just love logic and education. How people argue on here that it is bad to comment on lousy jobs is funny to me. Obviously some people try to take care of their biz by saying bad jobs are good (recruiters and so on) but that does not make things right. There are so many little scams within scams here (schools paying teachers to find teachers/schools paying less for new teachers and paying money to the old ones for findng the sucker/people taking off for vacation but not paying their substitute the same they are getting paid...) and people trying to make a few bucks(big actually) from our working at the school (recruiters) that calling bad jobs out is not a bad thing. There are hundreds of teachers here in Busan, but only a few, once in a while, say it is whining to call out bad jobs. I wonder why that is?

Stay educated people, good luck and play smart.

 

windupbird
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Joined: 01/17/2010
leebum

 I stand corrected.. I should of read your other post.

windupbird
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Joined: 01/17/2010
 Do you have any specifics on

 Do you have any specifics on those theories?

 

lee-bum-suk
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Joined: 10/26/2009
Nicely put. I also very much

Nicely put. I also very much enjoy my life here. I certainly wouldn't be this well off as I am back home or at least not have the same lifestyle.

Back in 1995 we didn't have koreabridge or pusanweb. I wish we did, then I might not have gotten naively burned by scamsters. It's all water under the bridge now but if I can help a few people not have to go through what I did  then it's all worth it.  This is my giving back.

Stop taking jobs for 25,000w please community. 30,000w bare minimum for multiple hours and paid cash daily. Those are the common denominators people should be using. 40-50,000w for a private if it's one hour and spiratic.

Thank you and take care.

lee-bum-suk
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Joined: 10/26/2009
No worries. Nice day out

No worries. Nice day out finally....I axed my classes for today and going for a drive. Take care....

sherin1225
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Joined: 02/25/2010
I agree on you Jay

You are right, those people who are accepting 18,000 won per hour are hopeless. I'm only a part time teacher but never experienced someone offer me of 18,000 won.

I was paid 40.000won /hr not even 30.000

Mr.Andrew
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Joined: 06/16/2010
Re: Pay???
Thank you for writing this Bum-suck
lee-bum-suk
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Joined: 10/26/2009
Re: Pay???

You are welcome. I wish koreabridge would allow comments on some of the job post, my god some of them are horrible and need to be taught a lesson.

dakotat357
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Joined: 06/03/2010
Re: Pay???

I have never liked these type of threads as they display the negative side of human nature and sts a very bad example to students--that greed, selfishness, ill-treatment of others, being spoiled etc. are good. They are not and teachers need to look upon teaching, not as a get rich profession, but as a service profession.

We sacrifice so that others will learn properly and be good people when they grow up. I am usually embarassed by the westerners who need to demand more money, raises, many vacation days or that they be paid for their unused sick days. Such people are very bad teachers who teach very bad things. Their bad character undermines any paper qualification they have obtained.

Teachers who come here, or want to teach anywhere, should have the attitude that they love to teach and that they came to teach not see how much money they can be paid or how many days they can avoid being in the classroom. Students certainly deserve  such people and not those who see them as an inconvenience or  insult them behind their backs  as they seek 'adventure' or pay their loans off.

I love to teach, I love being in the classroom and I love my students. I do not need many vacation days, do not need to be paid for sick days, do not need to demand extra benefits I do not deserve. I have never taken a sick day, last year was the first time I used my full contractual vacation days but that was due to calendar scheduling as more classes could not be organized (yes I ask to teach many hours during summer and winter vacation and I do not get double pay I only take my monthly salary so the students can attend for free/cheaper).

I can almost guarantee that everyone of you who are saying 'do not take those low paying jobs' will take a low paying job if the situation was -you either go hungry or you can put food on the table' I took a pay cut to remain at my school because teaching is more important than being greedy, selfish, spoiled or hurting my students.

If you look at the salary and you can see that you can live on that and still save some money, then take the job for working beats non-working and somewhere down the line you will may be able to get another better paying job after you finish the present contract.. But to act like spoiled little children who refuse to 'get out of bed' for less than $____ just shows how unqualified you are as a teacher.

You also have a false impression as to your worth as an employee, teacher as your attitude  ruins any contribution you may make to the school or your students. Those of you who have the attitude of the above posters, please get out of teaching because you are contributing to the problems society has not solving them.

Oh and not one of my employers has ever taken advantage o fme but I have recieved respect, acceptance, treated as an equal and other benefits that have helped my students be better english speakers and people.After all, teaching is about the student NOT the teacher. If you cannot live with what i soffered to you then quietly reject the offer and do not bash them on public forums for it is only you who looks bad because you certainly do not know the financial health, responsibilities and other circumtances that your potential employer must meet. You only look at the part of the picture that justifies your bad attitude.

lee-bum-suk
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Joined: 10/26/2009
Re: Pay???

Dakota, but what about mormon missionaries that offer 'free English' lessons disguised as bible study and church recruitment?  are they so much better than people offering a paid service like myself?   I don't hi-jack people off the subway like your christian brethren. I saw them practically kidnap a poor high-school student once. 

 My time is worth money and if I'm not getting a reasonable amount of renumeration for my time then there are better thing I could be doing with that time. Things that I would like to do; golf, do the xword puzzle, take a trip et cetera.  Dakota, it's not noble to work for peanuts, it's silly. Anyone who agrees to work for less is either naive or desperate. I hope I can help out here by telling people what the norm is(if there is such a thing) and eliminating that naive factor.  

As for desperate?  well....that's up to the individual and their situation. I, once upon time had to take some pretty crappy work to get over the hump. Never again, ever again!    

nebularpulse
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Joined: 05/10/2010
Re: Pay???

Dakota-

It's great that you care so much for your students and you have such a honest mindset when it comes to teaching...But I think you are missing the point. This is a job, and you should view yourself as a valued employee who, in exchange for teaching, receives compensation. I don't constantly think about myself, but I do know that I should be compensated adequately for my time and work.

dakotat357
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Joined: 06/03/2010
Re: Pay???

#1. I do not agree with the tactics of the Mormon Church. Mormons are not christian nor my 'christian brethern'.

#2.That is why you look at the contract offer and if you cannot live with that amount then do not take it. But do not bash people for offering it or accepting it.

#3. You sound like charlie Sheen in the original Wall Street but guess what, it is noble if you do it for the right reasons. Working for less is not naive or desperate, it is smart for a small pay check is > $0.

#4 You cannot help out for it is not the norm and a person should not listen to people like you or those who agree with you for soon they will find themselves on the unemployment line. Sorry but those who act like you and those who have posted on  this thread show the corrupt underside of westerners. Teaching should not be about money or benefits et.c One should look to teach the best both in material and attitude and people who agree with the general sentiment of this thread make things worse for real and good teachers who want and came here to teach.

#5 You never know if you have to take crap work again or not. Given this last economic down turn you may not have a choice. Best to be employed with a small salary than getting nothing at all because you want top dollar.

dakotat357
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Joined: 06/03/2010
Re: Pay???

I do not have to thinkof myself as a 'valued employee' that is up to the employer. If you had read what I wrote you would have seen thepart where I said 'if you can live with the salary being offered then... but...' I did not say anything about working for free or for less than a reasonable wage but I do not agree with the idea of demanding an amount that is too large.

The employer gets to set the wage not the employee after all it is his money, his job, he has to pay the bills, the rent, recruit students pay for your apartment and so on. he wants to make some money as well and he is not there to just give his money to a westerner because they have an inflated view of themselves (or some other sinful characteristic).

This year Korea is allowing employers to hire Indians and guess who made that happen--the selfish, greedy, whining, complaining, etc. westerner who did midnight runs abused their employers, and kept demanding more and more money, more luxuries apartments and other perks they did not earn.

if you can't be content with a little then you will never be content with a lot.

John Venerikson
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Joined: 08/13/2009
Re: Pay???

The employer sets the wage? I do not think so-the market and the people do. Working for nothing is poor, no pun intended, in my books. It hurts all teachers here. Not being able to negotiate a fair wage is not noble-it is weak. I mean, after all, I assume you came here to work and make money. And if you are here illegally, as an aside, that is even worse.

I agree with Lee, we should have the right ot comment on jobs and pay. I make my living teaching so people posting junk jobs looking for these illegal teachers is wrong and should be able to be called out. Really, no one with F-visas take these jobs for 15-20 an hour so who does then-ILLEGAL workers (usually peepswith only e2 visas).

I have no problem with people making a buck however, but, when they hurt the integrity of the market when doing so, we should be able to comment on this. This is not complaining-unless wanting to take care of others and your own family is a form of complaining???

And the idea we should be greatful and thus be servants to hagwon owners-are you kidding me??? People who come here and bend over backwards for schools thinking they are being nice are being taken advantage of-plain and simple. There is no corporate ladder. You are  teacher at a school run and owned by someone with no educational background; people who are just trying to make a buck like everyone else so don't be duped into thinking they care about you or that you are being 'noble', get what you can.

As for hiring Indians because of whiny foreigners-whatever. Koreans own much of the blame for most of the poeple who bail on jobs. We are university graduates. The housing in many cases is pathetic. I lived in a place so moldy I had to bring in my clothes and plop them down on the table to get the owner to finally move me. This is whiny? I was lied to by first recruiter and ended up living 30 minutes away from my school-by bus, but was told I was to live right beside the school. I also had to work saturdays which I did not know. I bailed and went back to Canada. This is whiny? One job refused to pay me on time so I bailed again. This is whiny? And on top of this, we are not Korean. Doing the "I am the almighty and you are the little worker" may work on other Koreans but it wont work on us!

You are awfully pro-Korean here Dakota. We are treated like crap here! So many people have problems with things like this. It should be an embarrassment to the schools and Korea but it is not because they do not care. Just hire someone else is the motto. The idea that hiring Indians is because of whiny foreigners is way off the mark I think. I do not trust any school I go into. I get paid everyday for my part time jobs. If they want a good teacher, that is what they have to do and I do not fell bad for that.

dakotat357
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Joined: 06/03/2010
Re: Pay???

"The employer sets the wage"

Yes he does. the market does not pay his bills nor do the people. He has sole say on what he will pay. No One said anything good about working for nothing and no one said you couldn't negotiate but the employer still has the last word. If he can't afford to pay then he won't. he still sets the wage.

"I make my living teaching so people posting junk jobs looking for these illegal teachers is wrong and should be able to be called out."

I do not agree with illegal teachers either but some westerners demand too much forcing the employer to do something drastic. If they go out of business you have no income. zIt is in you rbest interest to be smart not demanding.

"when they hurt the integrity of the market when doing so"

the 'integrity of the market' has nothing to do with anything. If that is what you are worried about I would hate to be your student. That comment tells me how low your students come on your priority list and it is appalling. The market can go get bent, the teacher's first concern should be his or her students not their own pocketbook or bank account.

"And the idea we should be greatful "

Actually you should be grateful that you have a job that gives you a salary,a home, a pension payout, medical and you should be thankful to God that you are working anywhere instead of being unemployed, homeless and other nasty things. I understand that you may not believe but I do and I will mention that last bit because I am certainly grateful for what I have.

"You are  teacher at a school run and owned by someone with no educational background; people who are just trying to make a buck like everyone else"

So? That doesn't justify any teacher from being like them or worse and not caring for their students and keep them presenting the best material in class. The employer's status has no bearing on the job you were hired to do--teach.

"get what you can"

That is not the qualified teacher's attitude. That comes from all those 'sports heros' who have fueld this greed and selfish mentality coming out of the west and ruining the games they play as they make it impossible for the real people who have supported their profession over the decades and put it in the hands of the rich elite. I am not a communist or a socialist but I do see injustice in that and in those who carrying that attitude into teaching.

"We are university graduates"

So? You are not the only ones to have a college degree and it does not make you 'special'. it just means you graduated from a university and it doesn't indicate if you did it honestly or not. Real education comes after university, anybody can write papers, do assignments and take tests. It is another thing to be able to teach people like yourself.

" I was lied to by first recruiter and ended up living 30 minutes away from my school-by bus"

Wow, you were inconvenienced, it happens all over the world and I am sure the North Koreans in those labor camps would gladly exchange places with you and relieve your suffering.

"I bailed " "I bailed again"

You reap what you so. i can see by your words that your attitude probably brought more of the same back on you so you have only yourself to blame. This is Korea, a different culture, if you want to be treated like western employers treat their employees please go back there and you will see that they are just as dishonest, superior, hard to change etc. as you claim the Koreans are.

"You are awfully pro-Korean here "

It is not a crime nor a sin to be such and you need to learn your place. You are not the boss but the employee you suck it up if you do not like it, keep your word, do your job and when your contract ends you move on. It is better to treat them better than they treat you.

"We are treated like crap here!"

Not really, just some who treat the Koreans like crap. I have been treated quite well and so have many, many others. Again you reap what you sow.

" It should be an embarrassment to the schools and Korea but it is not because they do not care"

It isn't and it shouldn't be for the Korean people were not raised on western culture  and westerners need to realize that the western culture is not the supreme nor the correct way to go, especially when you are in another country thathas its own cultural rules and ways. The westerner must adapt not the national. There are bad people in every country and if you are so concerned about bad employers maybe you should go after those in New York who force their employees to sow for 10-12 hours a day with little breaks or medical attention or other benefits. or have barmaids and waiters be paid minimum wage instead of just tips.

Or maybe you should return to Canada and make life better for the immigrants there who are treated worse than you are treated by Koreans.

"The idea that hiring if Indians is because of whiny foreigners is way off the mark I think"

I will disagree as the Koreans have suffered much by those who do midnight runs, who refuse to work unless their selfish demands are met, who demand more and more and are never satisfied, plus think that the Koreans are here to please and serve them.

" If they want a good teacher, that is what they have to do and I do not fell bad for that. "

No,  good teachers will do their jobs right and complete follow their contracts and not make things worse for their students or the next person who replaces them. They do not depend upon their employers to set the example, they do it first.

kilhallon
Offline
Joined: 03/03/2010
Re: Pay???

Good morning all,

I am not a teacher, but an engineer, but I can assure you all that there IS a parallel here between all industries, and yes education is an industry, just like any other, ship building, construction, anything you wish to consider.

If the supply exceeds demand, the price goes down, simple economics. No one is interested in quality, just bums on seats, can the applicant walk and talk, does his job adequately, welcome to the world of the employed.

Having worked for the past 35 years in Asia and Middle East, believe me there is a parallel for all westerners, and like it or not, Korea is now heading for the same slippery slope that all of the above Countries have gone down. I've been there, got the tee shirt (loads actually) and written the handbook in many languages.

Middle East, used to be a haven of opportunity for Westerners, now overflowing with highly qualified (what standards I would not like to consider here, another conundrum,another thread) Asian and Eastern European applicants, who quite rightly, find that the going rate that the Westerners are rejecting, are higher standards that that at home in their own respective countries.

Advantages of working in Middle East now, none except for sun and tax free packages.

Ladies and Gentlemen, the day of the gold rush is over, no more comfy jobs paying a good rate, the competition is here, and like it or lump it, the days are numbered. 

Do you really believe that, offered the choice of applicant A prepared to work 60 hours a week for Y, and applicant B who will only accept 3Y for half the hours, that the employer will accept applicant B??

LBS, I know you will jump in here, probably a couple of others also, to say that this would not happen where you work.

Problem is, for the 10% that try to maintain a high standard of teachers, 90% will not, and it is THEY who drive the market, the majority who only want the bum on the seat.

Korea now allowing Indian teachers in? Believe me, the standards are high from these guys, in all industries, they work all hours, and unfortunately for ALL Westerners, can do the job as good as you. 

BUT FOR LESS MONEY!!   

Sorry guys, I have been in the same situation you are now in, from 1975 through to now, from Middle East, Far East, Asia, and believe it not, even China. I have moved from country to country as the value of the employment has fallen in each.

Unfortunately, unless you are using teaching as a break from the Western World, besotted with Korea, or simply consider teaching as a vocation, your dissatisfaction will increase.

THE GOOD TIMES, THEY ARE A-GOING!!!

  

lee-bum-suk
Offline
Joined: 10/26/2009
Re: Pay???

Good morning to you all.

Dear killhallon

I would agree with you in regards to the yellow brick road ending if I didn't know Korean mothers any better.What I mean by this is simple; they are racist. They simply will not have Filipinos or Indians or any other non-white peoples here teaching their children en mass. I have seen this racism personally on at least ten occassions over the years and the discussion of this is not a new one. I have been waiting now for 10 years for the people from the places above to come and take my job away. It hasn't happened, I truthfully don't think it will. Our jobs may degress as a whole but I think westerners will still be at the helm of this ghost ship.

Why? Because of the things that John V. mentioned. If you think Koreans treat us badly how well do you think they will treat some 22year old woman from India? Westerers get no respect at gov't schools now, they will treat these Asian non-native speakers of English like dogs. Korean mothers will not have someone darker or country 'poorer' than them teach their kids, nor do they want the accent, that pretty much sums it up.   

The pilot program allowing Indians to come here is a small one, mostly placed in Kangwang-do, the poorest of the provinces and most remote. All it takes is one police matter or one fake degree scandal and this house of cards will fall. 

More later......coffee time.

John Venerikson
Offline
Joined: 08/13/2009
pay

Oh Dakota-it is always the sign of a weak argument when one must point out grammar mistakes and typos. Your logic is flawed so you resort to that? Being happy and so on because you have a job in Korea is crazy my man. People who try to sugar coat things about the reality of living here in Korea are simply trying to kid themselves. We are treated terribly here as a whole. Koreans need to learn they are not the center of the world and that all people are equal. Also, they should learn to treat people who are different from them better. Just 'being noble' and 'grateful' is hardly the answer.

Schools do not care about us so get what you can. So many times people at schools try to treat me like I am stupid-and this is not because they are the boss, they truly elieve they are superior. Crazy thinking! Being passive is cool, though, as it leaves the better jobs for people like me who will get what I deserve from them and then move on. Thanks bro!

 I will say I agree with Lee! Over the last few months I have been on here, him, Jay and a couple others keep getting slammed as complainers but as far as I can see, they are the only ones with their eyes open. Indians teaching at schools in Busan? No way parents or schools will go for that. One or two maybe but no way.

And one last time, not speaking up is no noble, it is a way to say you are to insecure or scared to stand up for yourself and or others. The whole argument we should be grateful is crazy considering people from India and the Phil are also able to do our jobs. Think about that! I think you are thinking about this backwards. We are all just monkeys here no matter where you are from, unless you become the tiger! Anyway, good luck to all. Thanks for leaving me with great jobs Dakota! My last comment on this thread. Already bored with it as it is very redundant. We can argue back and forth but my mind is definately not going to change to the diea we should be grateful and so on. Crazy! We are all free people to do withour lives as we see fit so I am going to do just that and contine to call out BS when I see it. Being fair to yourself is better than being noble. Selling out is cheap and the sign of weak character in my books.

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